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Old 02-14-2013, 10:17 AM
 
208 posts, read 222,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
We are talking about territory disputes. Korean war etc. have nothing to do with it. Please have some common sense.
Sino-Vietnamese war happened after Vietnam invaded Cambodia and China did not plan on occupying Vietnam at all.

China is the largest country in Asia surrounded by a huge number of nationalist countries. Of course China has the most disputes. It will be a surprise if not.

I think you are the one who is brainwashed by anti-China propaganda. Those who hate China always deny they are brainwashed, no exception.
Exactly what color is the sky in your world? China is the communist country that severely restricts its citizens freedom of speech and expression. People in China are not permitted to have academic freedom and anyone who challenges the official fiction is subject to harsh punishment, including beatings, house arrest or imprisonment. The Chinese goverment shamelessly lied about locking radar on a Japanese vessel but no Chinese newspaper criticized their goverment for lying because all of China's newspapers are subject to degrees of Communist party censorship. In countries that permit open debate, historical interpretations can be constantly challenged, revised, maybe brought closer to the truth. In dictatorships that use history as one more tool to maintain power, there’s no such hope.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:20 AM
 
6,725 posts, read 6,601,290 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsuleneo View Post
Exactly what color is the sky in your world? China is the communist country that severely restricts its citizens freedom of speech and expression. People in China are not permitted to have academic freedom and anyone who challenges the official fiction is subject to harsh punishment, including beatings, house arrest or imprisonment. The Chinese goverment shamelessly lied about locking radar on a Japanese vessel but no Chinese newspaper criticized their goverment for lying because all of China's newspapers are subject to degrees of Communist party censorship. In countries that permit open debate, historical interpretations can be constantly challenged, revised, maybe brought closer to the truth. In dictatorships that use history as one more tool to maintain power, there’s no such hope.
yeah, communist....what a cliche.
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:33 PM
 
1,487 posts, read 2,054,303 times
Reputation: 936
Most of those border skirmishes were not wars between the nation of China and her neighbors. They were skirmishes caused by the warlords who were powerful even during the early Maoist era. There were also warlords on the other side of the border. China's biggest incursion into Vietnam was not carried out by the Chinese it was the Mongol occupiers of China. The Chinese did try one invasion of Vietnam but it, like the Mongol invasion was a dismal failure. The Chinese have always been good at fighting each other but they're not very good at military interventions outside of China. Different from other nations, the military in China has never been a highly regarded class. That does not preclude the ability of many famous Chinese generals but China is not an invading nation. Korea? They were asked in by the North Koreans. Tibet was another thing however and may be seen as a black mark on China. Yet the Chinese have a fairly plausible reason for that invasion. As is evident in her history China's favorite weapons of conquest are the one two punch of immigration and through immigration the control of the economy of a nation. Today they may not even need immigration anymore.
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Old 02-14-2013, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
1,413 posts, read 3,872,870 times
Reputation: 1425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsuleneo View Post
Exactly what color is the sky in your world? China is the communist country that severely restricts its citizens freedom of speech and expression. People in China are not permitted to have academic freedom and anyone who challenges the official fiction is subject to harsh punishment, including beatings, house arrest or imprisonment. The Chinese goverment shamelessly lied about locking radar on a Japanese vessel but no Chinese newspaper criticized their goverment for lying because all of China's newspapers are subject to degrees of Communist party censorship. In countries that permit open debate, historical interpretations can be constantly challenged, revised, maybe brought closer to the truth. In dictatorships that use history as one more tool to maintain power, there’s no such hope.

You can not convince him. He does not understand everything he is told by his government is made to make them look good. He does not realize outside of China everyone see's through their lies.

You would think since he needs to use a proxy to get to this site (as verified by many posters unless this has changed) that shows his government controls everything their citizens are exposed to. It is really not worth arguing with him, he will defend everything is free and open. He will argue China is not governed by modern day communism, remember it is cliche to call China communist. Nevermind, the law prevents an opposing party, the government controls all media outlets and their nobel prize winner is locked up because he opposes the governments ideals. Why doesn't their party which is called the Chinese Communist Party drop the Hammer and Sickle? Why do they not allow opposition?

It does not matter, most of the world understands the truth. China will be better off once they turn into a democratic society. So much culture and heritage is blemished because of their government.
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:50 PM
 
1,487 posts, read 2,054,303 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momotaro View Post
, the law prevents an opposing party, the government controls all media outlets and their nobel prize winner is locked up because he opposes the governments ideals. Why doesn't their party which is called the Chinese Communist Party drop the Hammer and Sickle? Why do they not allow opposition?

It does not matter, most of the world understands the truth. China will be better off once they turn into a democratic society. So much culture and heritage is blemished because of their government.
Naturally any country is better off if the people have multiple choices for government. We need a few more to be honest. In effect, we have something more like two factions of the same party rather than two separate parties.

It is however naive to expect a country as large and unstable as China is today to change over-night. It is like turning a battleship around. All things considered, I am happy with the rate of progress I see in China. Russia is today a democracy...do you like it that much more than when it was a one party dictatorship. It is still corrupt but in a slightly different way. IMO it is because too many people tried to do too many things too fast.

The truth is that China has only been a socialist country for 64 years but it has been a one ruler lead country for some 5000 plus years except when it was the Republic for a few years after 1910 and that experiment was much to short to have any kind of success. Within a few years of Dr. Sun's demise Chiang Kai-Shek turned it into a right wing military dictatorship that was, essentially, no different from Japan except they had almost no industry. A sure fire formula for loosing armed conflict.

I am sure we will see a corporate China in the years to come but not tomorrow. I really think America should get rid of the communist boogey-man. It is an ideology that has proven itself unsatisfactory in the long term and is no threat to capitalist corporatism. We have other worries that demand out immediate attention. We need to stop dwelling on the past and face the future...it will be a future without communism but radical Islam will be with us for a long time.
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:02 PM
 
3,500 posts, read 4,956,546 times
Reputation: 3493
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
1,413 posts, read 3,872,870 times
Reputation: 1425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom9 View Post
Naturally any country is better off if the people have multiple choices for government. We need a few more to be honest. In effect, we have something more like two factions of the same party rather than two separate parties.

It is however naive to expect a country as large and unstable as China is today to change over-night. It is like turning a battleship around. All things considered, I am happy with the rate of progress I see in China. Russia is today a democracy...do you like it that much more than when it was a one party dictatorship. It is still corrupt but in a slightly different way. IMO it is because too many people tried to do too many things too fast.

The truth is that China has only been a socialist country for 64 years but it has been a one ruler lead country for some 5000 plus years except when it was the Republic for a few years after 1910 and that experiment was much to short to have any kind of success. Within a few years of Dr. Sun's demise Chiang Kai-Shek turned it into a right wing military dictatorship that was, essentially, no different from Japan except they had almost no industry. A sure fire formula for loosing armed conflict.

I am sure we will see a corporate China in the years to come but not tomorrow. I really think America should get rid of the communist boogey-man. It is an ideology that has proven itself unsatisfactory in the long term and is no threat to capitalist corporatism. We have other worries that demand out immediate attention. We need to stop dwelling on the past and face the future...it will be a future without communism but radical Islam will be with us for a long time.


I do not disagree, I hope to see a corporate China. I hope to see a democratic China. It is not so much the communishm that bugs me, rather the treatment of its people and the oppresion.

However, I am sure I will be told that is strictly American propaganda.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:08 PM
 
1,487 posts, read 2,054,303 times
Reputation: 936
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momotaro View Post
[/b]

I do not disagree, I hope to see a corporate China. I hope to see a democratic China. It is not so much the communishm that bugs me, rather the treatment of its people and the oppresion.

However, I am sure I will be told that is strictly American propaganda.
I see a lot of Chinese film and you can see them opening up more and really delving into the human rights issues. So far they censors haven't blocked everything so you can see how the Chinese have been for centuries. Compared to the West they haven't treated their people as well as the West has done over the course of the 20th century. But we (the West) also have a pretty checkered past with regard to human rights. Form many reasons we cannot apply our standards to Asian and vice-versa but we seem to always try. A lot of the mistreatment in China might be classified as "ethnic cleansing". We often forget that China has 56 separate ethnic groups all vying for position and this can cause problems. Look at the former Yugoslavia for example. I often go to a Chinese lace where the wait staff is mainly Cantonese but there are several Manchurian people there. You can feel the tension. And I thought that the manchurians had totally integrated into the mainstream of Chinese society. Obviously not.

Most of the propaganda I hear about China is from sources that are either openly hostile or overly favoring China so I pay little attention because the manufactured propaganda is so obvious. I am also careful watching those Chinese films because the directors have to get by the censors so some of the stuff is obvious propaganda. See the film "The Soong Sisters" It is a true story about the three most powerful women in China at the time of the Chinese Republic. The story runs from 1900 to 1949. Each one of the sisters married one of the three most influential figures in the founding of the republic One to Sun Yat Sen, One to Chiang Kai-Shek and one to the man who financed the largest part of the revolution of 1910 Kung Hsaing-hsi. The anti-Nationalist propaganda of course stands out but many Chinese feel that Chiang Kai-Shek abandoned the Chinese people and the revolution. They are right in that respect. His failure to stem foreign power in China, especially the Japanese but the West as well and his militarist tendencies killed any hope of a democracy before WWII and opened the door for Mao.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:18 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,361,353 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom9 View Post
Naturally any country is better off if the people have multiple choices for government. We need a few more to be honest. In effect, we have something more like two factions of the same party rather than two separate parties.

It is however naive to expect a country as large and unstable as China is today to change over-night. It is like turning a battleship around. All things considered, I am happy with the rate of progress I see in China. Russia is today a democracy...do you like it that much more than when it was a one party dictatorship. It is still corrupt but in a slightly different way. IMO it is because too many people tried to do too many things too fast.

The truth is that China has only been a socialist country for 64 years but it has been a one ruler lead country for some 5000 plus years except when it was the Republic for a few years after 1910 and that experiment was much to short to have any kind of success. Within a few years of Dr. Sun's demise Chiang Kai-Shek turned it into a right wing military dictatorship that was, essentially, no different from Japan except they had almost no industry. A sure fire formula for loosing armed conflict.

I am sure we will see a corporate China in the years to come but not tomorrow. I really think America should get rid of the communist boogey-man. It is an ideology that has proven itself unsatisfactory in the long term and is no threat to capitalist corporatism. We have other worries that demand out immediate attention. We need to stop dwelling on the past and face the future...it will be a future without communism but radical Islam will be with us for a long time.
Ever heard of the Warring states period? Also prior to the unification under the Qin dynasty what we know as 'China' consisted mostly of north-central China. There were other states like Yue and Wu in southern China.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:27 PM
 
1,487 posts, read 2,054,303 times
Reputation: 936
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Ever heard of the Warring states period? Also prior to the unification under the Qin dynasty what we know as 'China' consisted mostly of north-central China. There were other states like Yue and Wu in southern China.
Certainly, but if you are inferring that the Warring States Era I would not go along with that idea. It is generally considered that that period took place within China proper. The conquest of Inner Mongolia however can certainly be debated as a foreign war. There is also a very well done film about Inner Mongolia's rebellion against China and the Japanese in the first half of the 20th century. According to many Chinese it is a fairly accurate film called "Ga Da Meilin"
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