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Old 12-04-2012, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Shaw.
2,226 posts, read 3,145,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fellowjoe View Post
I might get flamed for saying this but ...


China and South Korea would not have become the modern economic powerhouse they are today without Japan. If not for Japan's ODA assistance, China would probably still be in the process of recovering from her centuries of economic stagnation, let alone being one of the greatest economic powers in the world today.
This is absolutely true (although, I'm sure both the Chinese and the Koreans might try to argue against it).

Quote:
South Korean technology were pretty much borrowed from the Japanese one which significantly contributed to its industries especially in automobile and mobile technology. Also, it was Japan that freed Korea from the status of a vassal state under China in 1895. If Korea remained under Chinese control, it would not have witnessed the exponential economic growth we see today.
China's control was pretty weak by the 19th Century and almost certainly would have been broken with the collapse of the Qing. Even then, any good will Japan could get for forcing out the Chinese in 1895 and the Russians in 1905, it lost in 1910 when it annexed Korea.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:22 AM
 
Location: In the heights
22,156 posts, read 23,683,428 times
Reputation: 11625
Quote:
Originally Posted by fellowjoe View Post
I might get flamed for saying this but ...


China and South Korea would not have become the modern economic powerhouse they are today without Japan. If not for Japan's ODA assistance, China would probably still be in the process of recovering from her centuries of economic stagnation, let alone being one of the greatest economic powers in the world today.

South Korean technology were pretty much borrowed from the Japanese one which significantly contributed to its industries especially in automobile and mobile technology. Also, it was Japan that freed Korea from the status of a vassal state under China in 1895. If Korea remained under Chinese control, it would not have witnessed the exponential economic growth we see today.
It'd be nice if history had the prosperous Japanese Empire be a bit more tactful in spreading such economic prosperity though.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Charlotte North Carolina
1,527 posts, read 2,328,135 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by fellowjoe View Post
I might get flamed for saying this but ...


China and South Korea would not have become the modern economic powerhouse they are today without Japan. If not for Japan's ODA assistance, China would probably still be in the process of recovering from her centuries of economic stagnation, let alone being one of the greatest economic powers in the world today.

South Korean technology were pretty much borrowed from the Japanese one which significantly contributed to its industries especially in automobile and mobile technology. Also, it was Japan that freed Korea from the status of a vassal state under China in 1895. If Korea remained under Chinese control, it would not have witnessed the exponential economic growth we see today.

same can be said for Japan...they owe their economic position thanks to America...
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:04 AM
 
2,518 posts, read 2,275,907 times
Reputation: 1840
Quote:
Originally Posted by fellowjoe View Post
I might get flamed for saying this but ...


China and South Korea would not have become the modern economic powerhouse they are today without Japan. If not for Japan's ODA assistance, China would probably still be in the process of recovering from her centuries of economic stagnation, let alone being one of the greatest economic powers in the world today.

South Korean technology were pretty much borrowed from the Japanese one which significantly contributed to its industries especially in automobile and mobile technology. Also, it was Japan that freed Korea from the status of a vassal state under China in 1895. If Korea remained under Chinese control, it would not have witnessed the exponential economic growth we see today.
Previous to this tho.. Japan did the same with all the trade and influence it received from the mainland through China and Korea. It was just primitive aboriginal/ainu culture before the influence it receievd from its neighbors.
The Japanese were threatened by Korea and it decisively chose to rid Korea of its own culture by erassing its total royal bloodline(through assassination) and illegalizing the Korean language.
Korea became a vassal state because of mongolias loss and Japan might have freed it but it enslaved it also.. so what's better?

If colonization by a more idustriliazed nation is the answer today to becoming a superior nation than what happens to India via England and Brazil via Portugal(allbeit no longer as powerful).. both those nationals have enormous amounts of natural resources along with manpower

Last edited by Ebck120; 12-05-2012 at 12:13 AM..
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:31 AM
 
Location: Shaw.
2,226 posts, read 3,145,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejay1 View Post
same can be said for Japan...they owe their economic position thanks to America...
Not entirely. Japan was an emerging power at the turn of the 20th Century (unless you credit Commodore Perry for that). Japan did grow very rapidly after WWII because of the US (and a healthy dose of Cold War politics). The same thing happened with West Germany. But Japan modernized before the trade advantages and economic aid were sent its way from America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebck120 View Post
Previous to this tho.. Japan did the same with all the trade and influence it received from the mainland through China and Korea. It was just primitive aboriginal/ainu culture before the influence it receievd from its neighbors.
Just so we're clear, the aboriginal and the Ainu aren't necessary the same people. At least the Yamato are not Ainu. I don't think you're saying that, but it might be a bit weird to people only marginally familiar with ancient Japan.

Quote:
The Japanese were threatened by Korea and it decisively chose to rid Korea of its own culture by erassing its total royal bloodline(through assassination) and illegalizing the Korean language.

Korea became a vassal state because of mongolias loss and Japan might have freed it but it enslaved it also.. so what's better?
Enslaved is a bit hyperbolic. "Annexed" is the neutral term. "Subjugated" is probably the best word.

I think there was a desire on the part of the Japanese to make Korea a part of Japan. It was a prestige issue. Obviously that's not right, but I don't think it was necessarily evil in intention.

Quote:
If colonization by a more idustriliazed nation is the answer today to becoming a superior nation than what happens to India via England and Brazil via Portugal(allbeit no longer as powerful).. both those nationals have enormous amounts of natural resources along with manpower
It matters a bit who was the colonizing power. But India's recent economic development has less to do with England than with India finally reforming all the bureaucracy. It used to be impossible to do business in India because of all the regulations you'd have to deal with and bribes you'd have to pay.

Oh, and changes in technology helped India a ton. India still has corruption, but technology allows companies to deal with it. There was a tech company that wanted to build a cable that ran from one building to another in a nearby town (a few kilometers away). Some official wanted a heavy bribe. So instead, that company decided to just send everything back to the home company in the US by satellite and then send that to the other company in India. Read "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman for more information about that. It's not a great book, but it has a ton of interesting anecdotes.

Brazil (like Argentina) used to be a rich country and then it fell behind. It's catching up again. It has a well-educated population and most importantly a lot of farm land. Brazil isn't like Korea, though (nor India) because most of the population is made up of colonists. It's closer to the United States in that regard.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:48 AM
 
2,518 posts, read 2,275,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgm123 View Post
This is absolutely true (although, I'm sure both the Chinese and the Koreans might try to argue against it).



China's control was pretty weak by the 19th Century and almost certainly would have been broken with the collapse of the Qing. Even then, any good will Japan could get for forcing out the Chinese in 1895 and the Russians in 1905, it lost in 1910 when it annexed Korea.
It's the same with Japan being where its at today due to mass amounts of $ going into it from the Usa after the bombs. If you know history somewhat
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:51 AM
 
2,518 posts, read 2,275,907 times
Reputation: 1840
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgm123 View Post
Not entirely. Japan was an emerging power at the turn of the 20th Century (unless you credit Commodore Perry for that). Japan did grow very rapidly after WWII because of the US (and a healthy dose of Cold War politics). The same thing happened with West Germany. But Japan modernized before the trade advantages and economic aid were sent its way from America.



Just so we're clear, the aboriginal and the Ainu aren't necessary the same people. At least the Yamato are not Ainu. I don't think you're saying that, but it might be a bit weird to people only marginally familiar with ancient Japan.



Enslaved is a bit hyperbolic. "Annexed" is the neutral term. "Subjugated" is probably the best word.

I think there was a desire on the part of the Japanese to make Korea a part of Japan. It was a prestige issue. Obviously that's not right, but I don't think it was necessarily evil in intention.



It matters a bit who was the colonizing power. But India's recent economic development has less to do with England than with India finally reforming all the bureaucracy. It used to be impossible to do business in India because of all the regulations you'd have to deal with and bribes you'd have to pay.

Oh, and changes in technology helped India a ton. India still has corruption, but technology allows companies to deal with it. There was a tech company that wanted to build a cable that ran from one building to another in a nearby town (a few kilometers away). Some official wanted a heavy bribe. So instead, that company decided to just send everything back to the home company in the US by satellite and then send that to the other company in India. Read "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman for more information about that. It's not a great book, but it has a ton of interesting anecdotes.

Brazil (like Argentina) used to be a rich country and then it fell behind. It's catching up again. It has a well-educated population and most importantly a lot of farm land. Brazil isn't like Korea, though (nor India) because most of the population is made up of colonists. It's closer to the United States in that regard.
I disagree... England invested and built up India more then Japan did for Korea yet today its a very different story for those nations. I agree Japan had an influence on Korea's modernization whether humane or not however where it is today compared to 59 years ago is its own will and pride Imo
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:06 AM
 
Location: In the heights
22,156 posts, read 23,683,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejay1 View Post
same can be said for Japan...they owe their economic position thanks to America...
Same with the Philippines though--lots of US funding. However, Japan and the Philippines went on radically different trajectories. The Philippines had a series of fairly corrupt governments that enriched themselves rather than improving the nation with the funds earmarked for development. I remember reading old microfiches that Burma/Myanmar and the Philippines were the two countries of East Asia projected to boom post World War II. That obviously did not happen.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:51 AM
 
Location: Charlotte North Carolina
1,527 posts, read 2,328,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Same with the Philippines though--lots of US funding. However, Japan and the Philippines went on radically different trajectories. The Philippines had a series of fairly corrupt governments that enriched themselves rather than improving the nation with the funds earmarked for development. I remember reading old microfiches that Burma/Myanmar and the Philippines were the two countries of East Asia projected to boom post World War II. That obviously did not happen.
unfortunately most of that money went to the Marcos' swiss bank account
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:28 AM
 
208 posts, read 222,763 times
Reputation: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgm123 View Post
China's control was pretty weak by the 19th Century and almost certainly would have been broken with the collapse of the Qing. Even then, any good will Japan could get for forcing out the Chinese in 1895 and the Russians in 1905, it lost in 1910 when it annexed Korea.
It was actually Korea's biggest political party named "Iljinhoe(一進會)" that suggested annexation to Japan first. Also the Prime Minister of Korea "Lee Wan Yong" actively helped Japan's annexation of Korea. They knew Korea was too weak and destined to be occupied by one country or another because of its location and inability to defend itself. "Iljinhoe(一進會)" even built the "welcome arch(奉迎門)" for Japan.
Here is a picture of the arch.
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