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Old 08-03-2015, 05:43 AM
 
919 posts, read 603,026 times
Reputation: 369

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Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Oh, English and other languages are much harder for Chinese people to learn, including the pronunciation. Japanese is till the easiest among major languages.
If Japanese is easier for Chinese people to learn, then, Chinese people should be able to speak better than other foreigners in general, however, most Chinese people are terrible speakers of Japanese.

For example, we say "I went to school" in Japanese like,

Watashi
wa (no corresponding word in English, here it means subject or topic)
Gakkou (school)
e (to)
ikimasita (go - past tense)

Chinese people tend to say it like,

Watashi (I)
gakkou (school)
iku (go - present tense)

I go school doesn't mean I went to school.

As for the pronunciation, even watashi is hard for Chinese people to pronounce correctly. Gakkou is a nightmare especially for native Mandarin speakers, because they can't pronounce voiced g and the first k in Gakkou, which is similar to k endings in Cantonese or Korean.

Is Japanese easier for Chinese people to learn? If that's the case, you have to conclude Chinese people are inferior to other people in terms of ability for learning foreign languages, which I disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Almost all the Japanese loan words in Chinese are made from Chinese morphemes. Yamato words are rarely borrowed. There are many new words in Chinese too, such as the words for computer, internet, smart phone... Japanese does not adopt them, but I found many Japanese people understand some of them.
Why are you afraid of reading the article?

Both 电(electricity) and 雷(thunder) meant thunder originally. Who did give 电 the meaning of electricity then? Well, not a Chinese.

By the way, even Taiwanese people can't understand many of those new words, how can Japanese people?

For examples, RAM and object-oriented (programming):

内存(Mainland China) vs 記憶體(Taiwan)
面向对象(Mainland China) vs 物件導向(Taiwan)
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Old 08-03-2015, 09:15 AM
 
1,424 posts, read 735,637 times
Reputation: 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanagisawa View Post
If Japanese is easier for Chinese people to learn, then, Chinese people should be able to speak better than other foreigners in general, however, most Chinese people are terrible speakers of Japanese.

For example, we say "I went to school" in Japanese like,

Watashi
wa (no corresponding word in English, here it means subject or topic)
Gakkou (school)
e (to)
ikimasita (go - past tense)

Chinese people tend to say it like,

Watashi (I)
gakkou (school)
iku (go - present tense)

I go school doesn't mean I went to school.

As for the pronunciation, even watashi is hard for Chinese people to pronounce correctly. Gakkou is a nightmare especially for native Mandarin speakers, because they can't pronounce voiced g and the first k in Gakkou, which is similar to k endings in Cantonese or Korean.

Is Japanese easier for Chinese people to learn? If that's the case, you have to conclude Chinese people are inferior to other people in terms of ability for learning foreign languages, which I disagree.



Why are you afraid of reading the article?

Both 电(electricity) and 雷(thunder) meant thunder originally. Who did give 电 the meaning of electricity then? Well, not a Chinese.

By the way, even Taiwanese people can't understand many of those new words, how can Japanese people?

For examples, RAM and object-oriented (programming):

内存(Mainland China) vs 記憶體(Taiwan)
面向对象(Mainland China) vs 物件導向(Taiwan)
Weird logic again.
I said Japanese is easier than other major languages for Chinese to learn, and you argued Chinese people make mistakes when speaking Japanese. You see the problem?
Do you know Chinese people often make mistakes in past tense when they speak English too? Do you know all European languages have past tense or something similar?

Yeah, some terms are different between mainland China and Taiwan, but what's your point again? I said Japanese people understand some new words in Chinese even though they are not used in Japanese (because both languages share some Chinese roots). You argued some words are not understood in Taiwan or Japan. huh?
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Old 08-03-2015, 09:16 AM
 
1,424 posts, read 735,637 times
Reputation: 508
BTW, I know there are many Japanese loanwords in Chinese, made from Chinese morphemes. In fact the Chinese textbook used in China mentioned that.
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Old 08-03-2015, 11:55 AM
 
268 posts, read 324,729 times
Reputation: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanagisawa View Post
Only one Japanese there?

I know many Japanese and Korean people who learned Chinese for years and still can't speak very well.
There was just one in our class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanagisawa View Post
Yes, that's right. But when and where do you listen to Chinese language in Japan or Korea?
I would think that Chinese TV, movies and music have a bigger presence in Japan and Korea than in America.
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Old 08-03-2015, 10:11 PM
 
919 posts, read 603,026 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Weird logic again.
I said Japanese is easier than other major languages for Chinese to learn, and you argued Chinese people make mistakes when speaking Japanese. You see the problem?
The problem I see is that you have no idea about what you have in your mind.

J is easier than other languages for C,
J is not easier than other languages for U,
U is better than C in terms of learning J,

C is inferior to U in terms of learning a foreign language.

Is this what you insist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Do you know Chinese people often make mistakes in past tense when they speak English too? Do you know all European languages have past tense or something similar?
I know. But what is your point here?

The problem that Chinese people tend to have is not only tense but also wa and e in the sentence, even pronunciations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Yeah, some terms are different between mainland China and Taiwan, but what's your point again? I said Japanese people understand some new words in Chinese even though they are not used in Japanese (because both languages share some Chinese roots). You argued some words are not understood in Taiwan or Japan. huh?
I said Japanese people understand some new words in Chinese even though they are not used in Japanese (because both languages share some Chinese roots).

And this is the reason why you think Chinese is easy for a Japanese to learn.

If that is the case, English should be easy for a Japanese to learn because there are more loanwords from English than Chinese. Do you insist English is easy for a Japanese to learn?
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Old 08-03-2015, 10:22 PM
 
919 posts, read 603,026 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by guawazi View Post
There was just one in our class.
While I believe Chinese is one of the easiest languages for a Japanese to learn, however, I know many Japanese who can't handle it very well.

I think you met a smart guy

Quote:
Originally Posted by guawazi View Post
I would think that Chinese TV, movies and music have a bigger presence in Japan and Korea than in America.
I don't think I had ever heard a single Chinese word in Japan until I started to learn Chinese.

Yes, I saw Jacky Cheng's movies on TV but he spoke Japanese, lol.
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Old 08-03-2015, 11:45 PM
 
1,424 posts, read 735,637 times
Reputation: 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanagisawa View Post
The problem I see is that you have no idea about what you have in your mind.

J is easier than other languages for C,
J is not easier than other languages for U,
U is better than C in terms of learning J,

C is inferior to U in terms of learning a foreign language.

Is this what you insist?



I know. But what is your point here?

The problem that Chinese people tend to have is not only tense but also wa and e in the sentence, even pronunciations.



I said Japanese people understand some new words in Chinese even though they are not used in Japanese (because both languages share some Chinese roots).

And this is the reason why you think Chinese is easy for a Japanese to learn.

If that is the case, English should be easy for a Japanese to learn because there are more loanwords from English than Chinese. Do you insist English is easy for a Japanese to learn?
Obviously Chinese language has the poorest morphology, among major languages in the world, so Chinese people make more mistakes in past tense (and some other grammatical uses) than most other people, for example. Isn't it obvious? You doubt it?
However, Chinese people are better at pronunciation than Japanese people, when learning most (not all) languages. Isn't it obvious too?

You always want to emphasize Japanese and Chinese are very different, but you ignore the fact that all other major languages are more different from Chinese.

I said Chinese is easy for educated Japanese people to learn, but I did not say it is the easiest for Japanese people (Korean may be easier). I said Japanese is the easiest for Chinese people, among major languages.

Japanese and Chinese share a lot of words. Some are made in China and others are made in Japan. Not just "loanwords from Chinese" or the other way round. Some other words are not shared but can be understood with little effort.
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:23 PM
 
919 posts, read 603,026 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
However, Chinese people are better at pronunciation than Japanese people, when learning most (not all) languages. Isn't it obvious too?
Well, it is not. Taiwanese people are better than Japanese in general, however, many Chinese people in Mainland have terrible accents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
I said Japanese is the easiest for Chinese people, among major languages.
I got a phone call yesterday from a guy who claimed he had been living in Japan for 11 years. He had very bad accents and could not make normal sentences such as -masu or -desu. How bad his accents you may wonder? The moment I heard the first word he spoke, I could figure out he was a Chinese.

I have met hundreds, if not thousands, Chinese people who learn Japanese, and realize Japanese is very challenging for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Japanese and Chinese share a lot of words. Some are made in China and others are made in Japan. Not just "loanwords from Chinese" or the other way round. Some other words are not shared but can be understood with little effort.
I understand the reason why you make emphasis on words, this is because words mean much more in Chinese than other languages.

Once you have learned 吃 in Chinese, to eat, you have pretty much mastered it. This is not the case in other major languages.

You have to learn eat, ate, eaten, eating in English. There are 食べる、食べます、食べる、食べました、食べない、食べなかった、食べませんでした in Japanese.

Once you have learned 车 in Chinese, you have pretty much mastered it. This is not the case in other major languages.

Even you know the word Auto in German, you can't make a sentence with it. Is it der Auto? die Auto? or das Auto?

Many loanwords from English don't help Japanese people to learn English.
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Old 08-05-2015, 11:14 PM
 
1,424 posts, read 735,637 times
Reputation: 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanagisawa View Post
Well, it is not. Taiwanese people are better than Japanese in general, however, many Chinese people in Mainland have terrible accents.



I got a phone call yesterday from a guy who claimed he had been living in Japan for 11 years. He had very bad accents and could not make normal sentences such as -masu or -desu. How bad his accents you may wonder? The moment I heard the first word he spoke, I could figure out he was a Chinese.

I have met hundreds, if not thousands, Chinese people who learn Japanese, and realize Japanese is very challenging for them.



I understand the reason why you make emphasis on words, this is because words mean much more in Chinese than other languages.

Once you have learned 吃 in Chinese, to eat, you have pretty much mastered it. This is not the case in other major languages.

You have to learn eat, ate, eaten, eating in English. There are 食べる、食べます、食べる、食べました、食べない、食べなかった、食べませんでした in Japanese.

Once you have learned 车 in Chinese, you have pretty much mastered it. This is not the case in other major languages.

Even you know the word Auto in German, you can't make a sentence with it. Is it der Auto? die Auto? or das Auto?

Many loanwords from English don't help Japanese people to learn English.
Let me paste my argument here again: "Japanese is the easiest language (among major languages) for Chinese people to learn".

We are comparing Japanese to other languages (for Chinese people), right? Then why did you only mention some Chinese have a poor command of Japanese? I live in the US and I know tons of Chinese people who have lived in the US for decades but speak very poor English too. What do you want to prove from there?

If someone cannot master -masu or -desu, he probably cannot master tenses and aspects in English either. Not to mention the conjugations in Spanish or French. What are you trying to prove here?

Also, Chinese has aspects too, but in different ways. Many foreigners do not know what is the best context for 吃了 vs 吃过, for example. And there is also 吃着, 在吃, 要吃, 吃吃... We just do not use suffixes like in Indo-Eurpean languages, or particles like in Altaic languages.
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Old 08-06-2015, 04:27 AM
 
919 posts, read 603,026 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Let me paste my argument here again: "Japanese is the easiest language (among major languages) for Chinese people to learn".

We are comparing Japanese to other languages (for Chinese people), right? Then why did you only mention some Chinese have a poor command of Japanese? I live in the US and I know tons of Chinese people who have lived in the US for decades but speak very poor English too. What do you want to prove from there?

If someone cannot master -masu or -desu, he probably cannot master tenses and aspects in English either. Not to mention the conjugations in Spanish or French. What are you trying to prove here?
Not mine but your statement leads to a conclusion: Chinese people are poor learners of foreign languages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Also, Chinese has aspects too, but in different ways. Many foreigners do not know what is the best context for 吃了 vs 吃过, for example. And there is also 吃着, 在吃, 要吃, 吃吃... We just do not use suffixes like in Indo-Eurpean languages, or particles like in Altaic languages.
Off topic, but can you tell the differences among 吃了饭 vs 吃饭了 vs 吃了饭了? Many Chinese people can't tell the differences
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