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Old 08-23-2013, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,252,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sadgirl80 View Post
It was Lee Kuan Yew who eradicated the dialects in Singapore in the 70s. Ask your parents.
And why do you think that is so? Its because the term is silly. Anyway ROC isn't recognized by the US, whose official stand is to support the One China policy. Even Americans know that Taiwanese people are ethnically Chinese. Its only the ones in Taiwan who are still drunk on KoolAid.
No Singapore immigrant or descendants of Singapore immigrants in the USA calls himself/herself that. They say they are Chinese-Americans.
Yes the 'speak Mandarin' campaign was instituted in 1979 to unify the Chinese dialect groups, who were quite fragmented. It was also in response to the pre-eminence of Putonghua in both the PRC and ROC. While Minnan is still widely spoken in Fujian province, I feel Beijing doesn't really care as much about preserving it (or, in reality, the minority languages), not sure about the Fujian provincial government. It seems Taiwan has 'claimed' Minnan as Taiwanese. Cantonese of course has more prominence.

Actually I think people can mark 'Taiwanese'...I just saw a youtube vid I recall seeing that actually encouraged Taiwanese Americans to mark Taiwanese not Chinese. There are indeed many TA's who are proud of their Taiwanese roots and want to be identified as such.

Yes, I suppose many Singaporeans who immigrate still see themselves as Chinese overseas. Personally, I prefer to identify more as Singaporean culturally, as a mix of Chinese, Malay and Indian influences. Our cuisine, for instance, is a mix of all 3. Certainly much different from the cuisine of China.

 
Old 08-23-2013, 12:09 PM
 
649 posts, read 982,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post

There are various theories, one proposing they come from as far as Mongolia. I didn't see any, but apparently there are blonde Hmong, even adults! I did notice some of the children had dark brown hair - a trait I've also noticed among some young Khmer children and Korean children.
They all look pretty dark skinned to me based on what I see on the Internet now. I have never seen any Hmong in person before. I know very well how Han Chinese looks like (it's my race) and I've spent a lot of time in various Southern Chinese cities (HK, Taiwan, Singapore) who came from Guangdong, Hainan and Fujian.

Hmong people look like Khmer a lot.

And I agree with another poster earlier than Chinese people in the US distance themselves from Vietnamese but Vietnamese tends to be the one associating themselves with Han Chinese.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 12:17 PM
 
649 posts, read 982,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
Yes, I suppose many Singaporeans who immigrate still see themselves as Chinese overseas. Personally, I prefer to identify more as Singaporean culturally, as a mix of Chinese, Malay and Indian influences. Our cuisine, for instance, is a mix of all 3. Certainly much different from the cuisine of China.
I see myself more as Chinese. I've deliberated on this for a long time and concluded that its caused by 1) My disdain for Singapore because of the manners and mentality of many of its people 2) The fact that I wasn't exposed to Singapore at birth and in my childhood, but instead in America, was exposed to Chinese-American culture and to ethnic Chinese friends with grandparents hailing from various parts of Greater China. As minorities, we often struggle with fitting in and identity issues, and very often we find it through our friends. Also, my mother has nothing to do with Singapore so she couldn't tell me very much. Both of your parents probably told you more about their own former lives.

The Chinese street food in Singapore is very similar to similar noodle and rice dishes in China (teochew porridge, fishball noodles, minced pork noodles, rou gu cha, chicken rice) in fact I bet they can be found in China because they originated from the Chinese hawkers who first started cooking what they knew from home to feed the Chinese laborers that were working there, the difference is just chilli added.

It's just that when you think of Singapore street food, you also think of the Indian and Malay ones but those are separate dishes from a different culture. There are only a few dishes that I think are confluence/merging of two cultures there eg Laksa, Mee Siam.

That's just its street food culture. In restaurants, the Chinese food served are the same as what you get in China, just with less salt, less sugar, less MSG.

The problem with "identifying with Singapore culturally", is that Singapore doesn't have its own culture. That's the problem. See even when you had to come up with an example, the only thing you could say or the first thing you thought of is the street food.

Rou Gu Cha is served in Malaysia too, anywhere with a Chinese community.
http://discoverbooktravel.blogspot.s...ou-gu-cha.html
"For our western readers, 肉骨茶 (commonly known as Bak-kut-teh in dialect or Pork Rib Tea in direct english translation) is basically a Chinese soup consists of meaty pork ribs that is simmered in a broth of herbs and spices. It is popularly served in Malaysia, Singapore, Mainland China and Taiwan, Indonesia Riau Islands and Southern Thailand.

Despite containing tea in its name, there is in fact no tea in the dish itself; the name actually refers to a strong oolong Chinese tea which is usually served alongside the soup in the belief that it dilutes or dissolves the copious amount of fat consumed in this pork-laden dish. There are slight variations in the Bak-kut-teh served in the places mentioned above, influenced closely by the Chinese within that community."

Last edited by sadgirl80; 08-23-2013 at 12:38 PM..
 
Old 08-23-2013, 05:47 PM
 
16 posts, read 27,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post

I don't think there's that much Han admixture in Vietnam, but the 'purest' Vietnamese should be from the north. I think the Viets are naturally like the Southern Chinese and minorities from S.China because they lived so close to them.
Reality almost the immigrant Chinese have been living in South VN for 300 years when South Vietnam belong Vietnamese. Rarely they living in North VN because where poor and narrow. At first immigrant Chinese almost married local wife from Viet or ethnic Southern ( Khmer/Malay/Cham). My father is descendant of them and he same Han Chinese while his parentage are someone pale, someone dark, majority medium. My mother is from the North VN. Her parentage almost are pale.

When I have been Thailand, sometimes I thought I still in Vietnam because the pure Thai very similar pure Viet.

Last edited by cholonman; 08-23-2013 at 06:23 PM..
 
Old 08-23-2013, 06:23 PM
 
138 posts, read 644,176 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadgirl80 View Post
There are two possibilities.

One is they are 1) Han Chinese of Thai nationality or 2) Thai mixed with Chinese.

The DNA of most Black Americans for example, have about 10 to 15 per cent of white admixture.

I'm not saying that the Thais and Vietnamese you see who look mixed can't be mixed. What I said is that most of the Thais and Vietnamese I see do not fall into this category. If it were, then yes, I'd say Southern Chinese (who are Han) and Southeast Asia have similar DNA. It would be fallacious to say that Southeast Asians and Southern Chinese DNA are "similar' which was a fallacious remark made by somebody earlier that I responded to.

The Cambodians (been to Siem Reap twice), Malays in Malaysia (have been many times), the Indonesians (been to Bali and Jakarta), the Filipinos and most of the Thais (been to Phuket and Bangkok 4 times), Vietnamese (been to Saigon) I see do not look like Singapore (been many times), Guangzhou (been), Shenzhen (been), Hong Kong (been many times), Taiwanese people (been many times) at all and its not just the fact that the second group look more trendily garbed.

Southern Chinese is Han Chinese. Most people from Southeast Asia except Singapore (run through the list of countries) are not.

The difference is actually very stark, especially in mundane day to day observations!

In the US, the East Asians are most visible Asian immigrants (in the US, the term Asian immediately connotes East Asian while the term Asian in the UK means Indian/Pakistani). White Americans have had no problems identifying Chinese Americans who have parents or grandparents from HK, Singapore, Guangzhou, Fujian (Xiamen), Shenzhen as Han Chinese Americans at all! If there was any confusion, it'd be they can't tell them from Korean American. But white Americans have no issue telling a Filipino American from them. Or a Cambodian immigrant from them. This is just ridiculous.
The fact is you never ever been to Northern areas of Thailand. There are no Chinese ethnic exist in Northern Thailand but Thai over there still look East Asian. So they aren't Chinese ethnic like you are claiming about, they are originally Dai ethnic. Dai ethnic is majority ethnic of Thailand that make up 75% and Dai ethnic physically look no different from S.Chinese.



Based on this ethnic map, Chinese ethnic often exist in Center and some in Southern but none exist in Northern at all

Northern Thailand street

 
Old 08-23-2013, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,252,153 times
Reputation: 2833
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadgirl80 View Post
They all look pretty dark skinned to me based on what I see on the Internet now. I have never seen any Hmong in person before. I know very well how Han Chinese looks like (it's my race) and I've spent a lot of time in various Southern Chinese cities (HK, Taiwan, Singapore) who came from Guangdong, Hainan and Fujian.

Hmong people look like Khmer a lot.

And I agree with another poster earlier than Chinese people in the US distance themselves from Vietnamese but Vietnamese tends to be the one associating themselves with Han Chinese.
https://www.google.com.au/search?saf...%3B1512%3B1008

You think these girls couldn't pass as Han? Do they look more like Khmer to you? They're the norm rather than the exception. If I showed you pics i took of Hmong in Sapa you definitely wouldn't be saying they're like Khmer. Sorry, but with that comment you've lost all credibility. Hmong came from S.China only 200 years ago, so if you say they're Khmer than you're saying people in S.China look Khmer.

Here in Australia the Chinese and Vietnamese often just seem like one big community...Asians tend to just see themselves more as Asians, as they are seen that way by white Australian. In many Chinatowns you see a lot of Viet businesses now.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 06:33 PM
 
138 posts, read 644,176 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
It's a cline...there are no definite boundaries between ethnicities. If you look at genetic charts, Vietnamese are at least as close to Southern Han as they are to Cambodians. Some Cambodians even look S.Chinese. I was actually once asked if I was Cambodian, by another Asian. Pol Pot was part Chinese but could easily pass in Singapore. But yes, I agree, I can usually tell Cambodians, Thai, Malays from Han Chinese from China, Vietnamese are a lot easier to mistake but I can often tell, but most Westerners can't. I live in Footscray which has a lot of Vietnamese and some Chinese and it's not always easy to tell. The fact many are Hoa further confuses things. There are also an increasing number of Koreans here. I can quite easily tell apart Koreans from Southern Chinese, certainly moreso than S.Chinese and Viets. Koreans and N.Chinese, on the other hand, often look similar.
Can you explane something more logical to us than your own believe? Becasue when I open sources everywhere around all of them telling same story that Vietnamese are originally Mon-Khmer who get invaded and ruled by Chinese for 1000 years. 1000 years, I doubt there are no mixing between original Mon-Khmer Kinh Vietnamese and Han-Chinese invader.So that basically making Northern Vietnamese no longer pure race like you are claiming.

By the way Northern Thai and Thai/Dai in Yunnan in S.China are still pure race and no such mixing. Because when we look back in history the Thai/Dai/Tai ethnic never ever get directly rule by Chinese like original Mon-Khmer Kinh Vietnamese.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 06:44 PM
 
138 posts, read 644,176 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
Austroasiatic is mostly a cultural thing. Viet civilisation began in the Red River delta, in Hanoi, less than 100 miles from the border with CHINA. Southern VN wasn't even Vietnamese until 500 years ago. There are many wild theories out there, never heard the Indonesian one...maybe your friend was talking about the CHAM people, who are thought to have come from Borneo. Some Viets claim they've been in Vietnam 20,000 years but I doubt that. Their civilisation is at least 4000 years old though.

You alway claiming based on your own believing and what you believing isn't going to be same as what original history and source say.

Here is the source itself that telling Vietnamese are originally from Indonesia.

Quote:
Historians believe that the earliest Vietnamese people gradually moved from the Indonesian archipelago through the Malay Peninsula and Thailand until they settled on the edges of the Red River in the Tonkin Delta.[citation needed] Archaeologists follow a path of stone tools from the Late Pleistocene Age (600,000-12,000 BC), across Java, Malaysia, Thailand and north to Burma. These stone tools are thought to be the first human tools used in Southeast Asia. Archaeologists believe that at this time the Himalayas, a chain of mountains in northern Burma and China, created an icy barrier which isolated the people of Southeast Asia. During the Ice Age, (12,000-8000 BC) the extreme northern and southern parts of the earth froze into giant glaciers and icebergs, while at the equator temperatures did not fall below freezing. Due to the formation of icebergs in the far north, the ocean levels around the equator dropped significantly. This resulted in the exposure of the shallow areas surrounding the coasts and islands of Southeast Asia - today known as the Sunda Shelf.
Full: Vietnamese people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So basically the thoery of Vietnamese came from Indonesia isn't a wild, it is a theory that accpted by most people.
 
Old 08-23-2013, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,252,153 times
Reputation: 2833
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadgirl80 View Post
I see myself more as Chinese. I've deliberated on this for a long time and concluded that its caused by 1) My disdain for Singapore because of the manners and mentality of many of its people 2) The fact that I wasn't exposed to Singapore at birth and in my childhood, but instead in America, was exposed to Chinese-American culture and to ethnic Chinese friends with grandparents hailing from various parts of Greater China. As minorities, we often struggle with fitting in and identity issues, and very often we find it through our friends. Also, my mother has nothing to do with Singapore so she couldn't tell me very much. Both of your parents probably told you more about their own former lives.

The Chinese street food in Singapore is very similar to similar noodle and rice dishes in China (teochew porridge, fishball noodles, minced pork noodles, rou gu cha, chicken rice) in fact I bet they can be found in China because they originated from the Chinese hawkers who first started cooking what they knew from home to feed the Chinese laborers that were working there, the difference is just chilli added.

It's just that when you think of Singapore street food, you also think of the Indian and Malay ones but those are separate dishes from a different culture. There are only a few dishes that I think are confluence/merging of two cultures there eg Laksa, Mee Siam.

That's just its street food culture. In restaurants, the Chinese food served are the same as what you get in China, just with less salt, less sugar, less MSG.

The problem with "identifying with Singapore culturally", is that Singapore doesn't have its own culture. That's the problem. See even when you had to come up with an example, the only thing you could say or the first thing you thought of is the street food.

Rou Gu Cha is served in Malaysia too, anywhere with a Chinese community.
Lunch @ Rou Gu Cha King (Gurney Plaza) - Singapore Travel Blog - Discover . Book . Travel
"For our western readers, 肉骨茶 (commonly known as Bak-kut-teh in dialect or Pork Rib Tea in direct english translation) is basically a Chinese soup consists of meaty pork ribs that is simmered in a broth of herbs and spices. It is popularly served in Malaysia, Singapore, Mainland China and Taiwan, Indonesia Riau Islands and Southern Thailand.

Despite containing tea in its name, there is in fact no tea in the dish itself; the name actually refers to a strong oolong Chinese tea which is usually served alongside the soup in the belief that it dilutes or dissolves the copious amount of fat consumed in this pork-laden dish. There are slight variations in the Bak-kut-teh served in the places mentioned above, influenced closely by the Chinese within that community."
Yes I can understand why. You're more detached from your Singaporean heritage I suppose. We used to go back to Singapore and Malaysia a lot as kids, see relatives etc, and quite a few people my parents know have migrated to Perth. There's quite a large Malaysian-Singaporean community in Perth. I actually used to be annoyed I wasn't born in Australia, but I practically was, since I came here as a baby. Since then I've learned to embrace it as my 'second hometown.' Of course I still have Chinese ancestry, and I'm curious about that too, but when I'm I went to China I definitely felt like a foreigner. If you speak Mandarin I'm sure you felt more at home there.

It's true some dishes in Singapore like the ones you mentioned came pretty much straight from China...I suppose the most familiar ones I can think of like curry chicken or nyonya curry chicken, laksa, nasi lemak, hainanese chicken rice, horfun, beef rendang, roti prats, murtabak are also Indian/Malay or a mix. As a kid I didn't like a lot of Chinese food, but I always loved roti prata/roti canai...my tastebuds are a lot more open now, though, and I appreciate many dishes from Singapore. In China my favourite cuisine was from Sichuan...the cuisine of my ancestral homeland, Fujian province, is kinda bland and I've never been keen on most Cantonese. My paternal grandmother is Peranakan but unfortunately she passed away before I was born. The old photos of her are interesting, though, like the clothes they'd wear for photos etc.

What are your parent's ancestry in China? On my mother's side, my family came from China, near Quanzhou in south-central Fujian, about 1910, my dad's side have been in Malaysia for quite a long time, especially on his mother's side in Penang. My dad's father was actually born in Burma. Both my surviving grandparents mainly speak Hokkien, though my grandfather can also speak English. Both my parents' main language is English (which of course is not atypical for Singaporean-Malaysian migrants here, especially the uni educated), though...my father studied and lived in New Zealand and the UK for many years. It's funny my mother's Hokkien isn't that good, her Mandarin is better. She said she was bad in it in school but got better speaking to Chinese-speaking patients. In China she was able to converse relatively fluently. Both my parents also speak Malay. I like how Singapore is a mixture of all 3 cultures, though, the food there is the best in Asia, imo, although Thailand comes close...well Malaysia too, Penang, KL, Melaka, Ipoh.etc.

Last edited by The Postman; 08-23-2013 at 06:57 PM..
 
Old 08-23-2013, 07:00 PM
 
138 posts, read 644,176 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
That very map shows Taiwanese Han closer to Vietnamese than Japanese. What does that say? I think the Japanese have several origins, from Korea, Siberia, China and South-East Asia. Korean are mostly from Manchuria, Siberia, maybe Mongolia. Language-wise Japanese and Korean might be Altaic, more like Mongolian, Evenki, Buryat, Yakut than Chinese languages.

If you're talking the ORIGINAL Han, who come from the Huang He of the North China plain, they would cluster more with Quang, Tibetans, somewhat with Mongolians, with Koreans a bit more distant. But the Chinese conquered a vast area, bigger than Europe, with a great diversity of peoples. So are you saying they didn't mix at all with those natives? Are you really saying you cannot tell any difference whatsoever between the people in Harbin and those in Guangzhou? On a trip of the Yangtze I met two old ladies from Heiliongjiang , formerely Manchuria. Dunno how Manchurian they were, but they immediately stood out because of their very small eyes, even small among the other Chinese. There was a man from Xiamen who looked totally different from them.
Based on the map in his link are aren't even a single information about Viet.......



The information is about Thai and not Vietnamese. But you are still keep saying Viet this to the Chinese, Viet that to the Chinese.

There is no information about the original Mon-Khmer Kinh Vietnamese. But you are still claiming based on your own believing.
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