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Old 08-25-2013, 05:24 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,252,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio_Auditore View Post
So now you are talking about dialect lol??

20 milions of Thai nationality speak Thai/Tai as first langauge lol ? What you are talking about is dialect and not the langauge itself and that 20 millions is represent to the dialect of Center Thailand.

Another thing is Issan and Northern are also count under Thai/Tai , all kinda of Tai-Kadai count under Thai/Tai. So definitely when we count all first langauge speakers of Thai/Tai/Tai-Kadai in Thailand, They definitely made up over 80%. Only Chinese/Malay/Khmer and a few minority are actaully speak something else as first langauge those aren't fall under Thai/Tai/Tai-Kadai.

You tried to point out differnt dialect in different areas in Thailand (which most of them are actually count as Thai(Tai) except Khmer/Malay and something those aren't Tai-Kadai) but you are claiming that all Vietnamese speak only one dialect for the whole country? lol?? I doubt that, becasue Vietnamese also have different dialect depend on area. They have Northern/Southern and such.

So based on what you claim by saying that Center Thai dialect is different from Northern/Issan Thai dialect that is alredy like saying Northern Vietnamese dialect is different from Southern Vietnamese dialect.

You obviously alway giving exception when Vietnamese are different, while alway pointing out when Thai are different. I kinda think you have agenda now.
No agenda, I just feel Thailand is a bit more culturally diverse than Vietnam. To be sure, there are cultural differences throughout Vietnam, but I feel the people have a real sense of unity. Viet Kinh is like the Han Chinese because both were under Communism. Of course I know Vietnam has different dialects. Even I can hear the difference between Saigon and Hanoi dialect. Are you Vietnamese? I've learned a lot about Vietnam from my Vietnamese friend I met in Hue. I think, though, the Cham cultural influence in Vietnam is fairly minimal. I.e. Hindu/Buddhist, Indic/Austronesian culture.etc. And yes, Central Thai and Isan are quite different (though intelligible). I think more different than Vietnamese dialects.

 
Old 08-25-2013, 07:43 AM
 
138 posts, read 644,176 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
No agenda, I just feel Thailand is a bit more culturally diverse than Vietnam. To be sure, there are cultural differences throughout Vietnam, but I feel the people have a real sense of unity. Viet Kinh is like the Han Chinese because both were under Communism. Of course I know Vietnam has different dialects. Even I can hear the difference between Saigon and Hanoi dialect. Are you Vietnamese? I've learned a lot about Vietnam from my Vietnamese friend I met in Hue. I think, though, the Cham cultural influence in Vietnam is fairly minimal. I.e. Hindu/Buddhist, Indic/Austronesian culture.etc. And yes, Central Thai and Isan are quite different (though intelligible). I think more different than Vietnamese dialects.
I am not a Vietnamese, I am Lao but I have experiance of living/working in both Thailand and Vietnam.

Vietnamese those from different culture have more sence of unity than Thai those from different culture? Well that seem to be the effect of Communism like you said. Communism is known to forcing, Democratic is known to freedom. Vietnamese communist government is generally forcing people from different culture into the same way, while Thai democracy government giving people freedom about culture.

BUT, all of those mention above are only about cuturally stuffs which only have effect about way of life of the people and have nothing to do when we talking about racially. Just because Vietnamese is cutually more united (from forcing by communist gov.) that doesn't mean that they are going to be racially more homogenous than Thai.

Another thing is Center Thai/Northern Thai/Upper Issan Thai(Lao) are only different about 20%, while 80% are still the same. All of Center Thai first langauge speaker can understand Northern Thai/ Upper Issan Thai (Lao) about 80%.

But when it comes to Southern Thai(Malay)/Lower Issan Thai(Khmer), Center Thai first langauge speaker completely can't understand anything at all, not even a single word. Both are complately different from Center Thai/Northern Thai/Upper Issan Thai(Lao).

Center Thai/Northern Thai/Upper Issan Thai(Lao) all are considered to be Tai-Kadai, Southern Thai(Malay) is considered to be Austronesian, Lower Issan Thai(Khmer) is considered to be Mon-Khmer.

Last edited by Ezio_Auditore; 08-25-2013 at 07:52 AM..
 
Old 08-25-2013, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,252,153 times
Reputation: 2833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio_Auditore View Post
I am not a Vietnamese, I am Lao but I have experiance of living/working in both Thailand and Vietnam.

Vietnamese those from different culture have more sence of unity than Thai those from different culture? Well that seem to be the effect of Communism like you said. Communism is known to forcing, Democratic is known to freedom. Vietnamese communist government is generally forcing people from different culture into the same way, while Thai democracy government giving people freedom about culture.

BUT, all of those mention above are only about cuturally stuffs which only have effect about way of life of the people and have nothing to do when we talking about racially. Just because Vietnamese is cutually more united (from forcing by communist gov.) that doesn't mean that they are going to be racially more homogenous than Thai.

Another thing is Center Thai/Northern Thai/Upper Issan Thai(Lao) are only different about 20%, while 80% are still the same. All of Center Thai first langauge speaker can understand Northern Thai/ Upper Issan Thai (Lao) about 80%.

But when it comes to Southern Thai(Malay)/Lower Issan Thai(Khmer), Center Thai first langauge speaker completely can't understand anything at all, not even a single word. Both are complately different from Center Thai/Northern Thai/Upper Issan Thai(Lao).

Center Thai/Northern Thai/Upper Issan Thai(Lao) all are considered to be Tai-Kadai, Southern Thai(Malay) is considered to be Austronesian, Lower Issan Thai(Khmer) is considered to be Mon-Khmer.
Yes I don't really know that much about Thailand, I've only been to Bangkok and Phuket. Isn't it inaccurate to call Khmer and Malay 'Thai'? I know Khmer predominates in southern Isaan. A lot of Thailand were part of the Khmer and Lao kingdoms before. Thai culture is also quite influenced by Burmese culture.

Well yes I was talking more about cultural diversity more than genetic diversity. The Japanese are always spoken of as very homogeneous culturally but there are variations within the country, and I actually think there are many different types of Japanese looks because they have a multi-origin genetic origin. The Vietnamese themselves always like to emphasis their 'racial purity' along with the Han Chinese, but both peoples are quite mixed.
 
Old 08-25-2013, 04:23 PM
 
138 posts, read 644,176 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
Yes I don't really know that much about Thailand, I've only been to Bangkok and Phuket. Isn't it inaccurate to call Khmer and Malay 'Thai'? I know Khmer predominates in southern Isaan. A lot of Thailand were part of the Khmer and Lao kingdoms before. Thai culture is also quite influenced by Burmese culture.

Well yes I was talking more about cultural diversity more than genetic diversity. The Japanese are always spoken of as very homogeneous culturally but there are variations within the country, and I actually think there are many different types of Japanese looks because they have a multi-origin genetic origin. The Vietnamese themselves always like to emphasis their 'racial purity' along with the Han Chinese, but both peoples are quite mixed.
Sorry for the mistake, I agreed that Khmer and Malay shouldn't considered as "Thai".

For Japanese from some of my experience of meeting them, aside from Okinawan I don't really much different between them, not complately same like Korean but not too different either. But I still agreed that there some look that exist in Japanese but don't exist in Korean.

I agreed that Chinese are extreamly mixed nationality since the country is extreamly big, but yet most Chinese still call themselves as "pure Han-Chinese". That seem to be the effect of their communist government that forcing people from different ethnic/culture to walk into the same way.

Last edited by Ezio_Auditore; 08-25-2013 at 04:33 PM..
 
Old 08-25-2013, 07:04 PM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,609,353 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio_Auditore View Post
I agreed that Chinese are extreamly mixed nationality since the country is extreamly big, but yet most Chinese still call themselves as "pure Han-Chinese". That seem to be the effect of their communist government that forcing people from different ethnic/culture to walk into the same way.
Nonsense.
People in Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong call themselves (ethnic) Han Chinese too, though they speak different languages and live in very different places.

China has been a unified nation for thousands of years. People from other cultures may not be able to understand the mentality.
 
Old 08-25-2013, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,252,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio_Auditore View Post
Sorry for the mistake, I agreed that Khmer and Malay shouldn't considered as "Thai".

For Japanese from some of my experience of meeting them, aside from Okinawan I don't really much different between them, not complately same like Korean but not too different either. But I still agreed that there some look that exist in Japanese but don't exist in Korean.

I agreed that Chinese are extreamly mixed nationality since the country is extreamly big, but yet most Chinese still call themselves as "pure Han-Chinese". That seem to be the effect of their communist government that forcing people from different ethnic/culture to walk into the same way.
While isolated Japan's history of colonisation is quite complex and interesting...the Ainu, Jomon, Yayoi, people from SE Asia and possible others have contributed to quite an interesting mix. I've seen or Japanese people who look Korean, Chinese, Malay, Polynesian, Ainu and Eurasian.

I think the whole 'Han identity' was indeed strengthened by Communism but there is debate over when a collective idea of a 'Han ethnicity' arose. I think prior to Communism, while people were aware of being Chinese, many have more of an affinity to their language group, or clan/family rather than people part of a vast empire of hundreds of millions of people, many of whom they could not even communicate with. If you went back to the 19th century Qing dynasty, for instance, you'd find most Chinese people poor peasants who were illiterate, and probably could not communicate with someone from the neighbouring province because the dialect was so different. There were legends that united them, like that of the Yellow Emperor, but I feel a lot of nation states around the world are products of the post industrial revolution/globalised world. For instance both Italy and Germany only united in the 1870s.

It would be interesting to imagine if China did end up breaking into smaller states like Europe, like through much of it's history. Fujian province would become it's own nation, as would Guangdong. I wonder then if the Fujianese and Cantonese would forge more of a separate identity? I've always felt the Southern Chinese had a lot of things different from your classical Beijing-governed China.
 
Old 08-25-2013, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,252,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Nonsense.
People in Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong call themselves (ethnic) Han Chinese too, though they speak different languages and live in very different places.

China has been a unified nation for thousands of years. People from other cultures may not be able to understand the mentality.
While it's true that Chinese history and culture is very old, I think this glosses over the regional sense of identity that often predominated over a sense of national of pan-ethnic identity. China is of course not a uniform place, and varies greatly in geography and culture. Like I said, this was especially true for those in the South of China. I think an awareness of being 'Han Chinese' or 'Overseas Chinese' and identifying with China was heightened by a sense of brotherhood with other Chinese dialect or language or klan groups who were once strangers...in early Singapore the Hokkien, Teochew, Hainanese, Hakka, Cantonese.etc couldn't really communicate with one another and were much more segregated. Well the first 3 somewhat, but not the Hokkien and Cantonese.
 
Old 08-25-2013, 08:24 PM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,609,353 times
Reputation: 2386
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
While it's true that Chinese history and culture is very old, I think this glosses over the regional sense of identity that often predominated over a sense of national of pan-ethnic identity. China is of course not a uniform place, and varies greatly in geography and culture. Like I said, this was especially true for those in the South of China. I think an awareness of being 'Han Chinese' or 'Overseas Chinese' and identifying with China was heightened by a sense of brotherhood with other Chinese dialect or language or klan groups who were once strangers...in early Singapore the Hokkien, Teochew, Hainanese, Hakka, Cantonese.etc couldn't really communicate with one another and were much more segregated. Well the first 3 somewhat, but not the Hokkien and Cantonese.
Even in south China, people consider themselves 華人 without a doubt.
All Chinese people have never been able to orally communicate with each other, and people do not even consider it a criterion.
In southeast China, usually people cannot understand the language of a neighboring town.
 
Old 08-25-2013, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,252,153 times
Reputation: 2833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Even in south China, people consider themselves 華人 without a doubt.
All Chinese people have never been able to orally communicate with each other, and people do not even consider it a criterion.
In southeast China, usually people cannot understand the language of a neighboring town.
In Europe, they would be separate nationalities because of the language barrier. Like Dutch and German. I wouldn't say it's that extreme, the Hoklo people from Xiamen to Quanzhou could probably understand each other. Dunno about Fuzhou or northern Min but I don't think it's that different. I've always felt though that the Fujianese were quite different to the Cantonese. Also in terms of their typical roles overseas.
 
Old 09-12-2013, 08:31 PM
 
138 posts, read 644,176 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Even in south China, people consider themselves 華人 without a doubt.
All Chinese people have never been able to orally communicate with each other, and people do not even consider it a criterion.
In southeast China, usually people cannot understand the language of a neighboring town.
Does langauges in Northern China are lesser deverse than in Southern China?
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