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Old 10-14-2013, 11:38 AM
 
10 posts, read 32,612 times
Reputation: 15

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This is the problem with having a nationality named "Vietnamese" and an ethnic group, Kinh, that is commonly referred to as "Vietnamese". If we were to talk about Japanese people we would all know which people we were referring too but talking about Americans would be much more ambiguous. The topic creator equates Vietnamese with Kinh when they are not the same.

"Most of them look Khmer. Some also look Malay/Cham" - Ezio_Auditore
That's because you've specifically selected videos showcasing Khmer and Montagnards minorities (Malayo-Polynesian peoples). The title of the second video even says "Tet Khmer Nam Bo". The third video in set in the Central Highlands of Vietnam, the home of Montagnard/Degar people so why would you not expect them to look Malay/Cham?

It's the same old tired trolling tactics from this guy - selective misrepresentation. For those of you who do not know, Ezio_Auditore is a known troll that visits many Asian/Ethnic based websites and forums. He is famously known on Asiantown.net as "Xunlao", on Eastbound88.com as "KhonThaiJaiDee", on Soompi as "XunXa", on ChinaHistoryForum as "NamSeang", and on AsianFanatics as "Guest_TanZ_*". Here on City-Data, he has an alternate account named Great_Jack he used to create this topic and another to agree with himself. You can easily tell they are all the same people because they all ask the question of who is closer to NorthEast Asians or Chinese between Thai/Tai/Dai and Viet/Kinh or some variant of it. If you don't believe me go ahead and google the words "Thai/Tai/Dai" and see for yourself the topics this guy has made - all with the same questions and pictorial/video evidence. The fact that all these people would specifically ask this question along with the unusual phrase "Thai/Tai/Dai" is substantial evidence for them being from the same person.

What compels this guy go out of his way to ask this question on so many forums? Your guess is as good as mine. However, it is obvious to see that this guy's agenda is to "prove" that Thai people are more genetically/phenotypically Northeast Asian or Chinese-looking than Vietnamese through biased and selective media.

Finally, to answer this topic's question. Can we first agree to stop using biased media to "prove" anything? Why not use genetic studies to answer the question "who is more genetically Northeast Asian"?

According to this admixture study at http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/09...-al-2010.html:

A: South Asian
B: Altaic
C: Irula (S Indian tribals)
D: !Kung (Khoisan speakers from Africa)
E: Sub-Saharan
F: Polynesian
G: Southeast Asian
H: Pygmy
I: West Asian
J: European
K: Amerindian
L: Northeast Asian

The data shows it clearly: Not only are Thai people more Southeast Asian (G) but they are also less Northeast Asian (L) and have a significant South Asian (A) component which Vietnamese almost entirely lacks.

This should resolve the topic completely but let us see how Ezio_Auditore / Great_Jacks responds if he does. If he refuses to respond with a genetic study or scholarly work but instead with more selective media or statements like "Tai peoples came from what is now known as China therefore they are more Chinese" then we will know for sure that he is a troll. This topic is about Genetics, a subject that can be quantified and shown explicitly without vague notions of language/culture/supposed origins. No amount of biased and selective videos and pictures can override hard genetic evidence. The topic asked for genetics and I have shown the tables and numbers - will he do the same or will he just simply downplay this study, refuse to provide a real genetic study of his own, and continue along with his agenda?

Last edited by Warranthad; 10-14-2013 at 11:54 AM.. Reason: Spelling

 
Old 10-14-2013, 11:47 AM
 
10 posts, read 32,612 times
Reputation: 15


Look at how many topics he has made on so many different forums. Surely it has to be the same person?
 
Old 10-14-2013, 03:57 PM
 
138 posts, read 643,852 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warranthad View Post
This is the problem with having a nationality named "Vietnamese" and an ethnic group, Kinh, that is commonly referred to as "Vietnamese". If we were to talk about Japanese people we would all know which people we were referring too but talking about Americans would be much more ambiguous. The topic creator equates Vietnamese with Kinh when they are not the same.

"Most of them look Khmer. Some also look Malay/Cham" - Ezio_Auditore
That's because you've specifically selected videos showcasing Khmer and Montagnards minorities (Malayo-Polynesian peoples). The title of the second video even says "Tet Khmer Nam Bo". The third video in set in the Central Highlands of Vietnam, the home of Montagnard/Degar people so why would you not expect them to look Malay/Cham?

It's the same old tired trolling tactics from this guy - selective misrepresentation. For those of you who do not know, Ezio_Auditore is a known troll that visits many Asian/Ethnic based websites and forums. He is famously known on Asiantown.net as "Xunlao", on Eastbound88.com as "KhonThaiJaiDee", on Soompi as "XunXa", on ChinaHistoryForum as "NamSeang", and on AsianFanatics as "Guest_TanZ_*". Here on City-Data, he has an alternate account named Great_Jack he used to create this topic and another to agree with himself. You can easily tell they are all the same people because they all ask the question of who is closer to NorthEast Asians or Chinese between Thai/Tai/Dai and Viet/Kinh or some variant of it. If you don't believe me go ahead and google the words "Thai/Tai/Dai" and see for yourself the topics this guy has made - all with the same questions and pictorial/video evidence. The fact that all these people would specifically ask this question along with the unusual phrase "Thai/Tai/Dai" is substantial evidence for them being from the same person.

What compels this guy go out of his way to ask this question on so many forums? Your guess is as good as mine. However, it is obvious to see that this guy's agenda is to "prove" that Thai people are more genetically/phenotypically Northeast Asian or Chinese-looking than Vietnamese through biased and selective media.

Finally, to answer this topic's question. Can we first agree to stop using biased media to "prove" anything? Why not use genetic studies to answer the question "who is more genetically Northeast Asian"?

According to this admixture study at http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/09...-al-2010.html:

A: South Asian
B: Altaic
C: Irula (S Indian tribals)
D: !Kung (Khoisan speakers from Africa)
E: Sub-Saharan
F: Polynesian
G: Southeast Asian
H: Pygmy
I: West Asian
J: European
K: Amerindian
L: Northeast Asian

The data shows it clearly: Not only are Thai people more Southeast Asian (G) but they are also less Northeast Asian (L) and have a significant South Asian (A) component which Vietnamese almost entirely lacks.

This should resolve the topic completely but let us see how Ezio_Auditore / Great_Jacks responds if he does. If he refuses to respond with a genetic study or scholarly work but instead with more selective media or statements like "Tai peoples came from what is now known as China therefore they are more Chinese" then we will know for sure that he is a troll. This topic is about Genetics, a subject that can be quantified and shown explicitly without vague notions of language/culture/supposed origins. No amount of biased and selective videos and pictures can override hard genetic evidence. The topic asked for genetics and I have shown the tables and numbers - will he do the same or will he just simply downplay this study, refuse to provide a real genetic study of his own, and continue along with his agenda?

Quote:
"Most of them look Khmer. Some also look Malay/Cham" - Ezio_Auditore
That's because you've specifically selected videos showcasing Khmer and Montagnards minorities (Malayo-Polynesian peoples). The title of the second video even says "Tet Khmer Nam Bo". The third video in set in the Central Highlands of Vietnam, the home of Montagnard/Degar people so why would you not expect them to look Malay/Cham?
The purpose of those videos are to prove that "Vietnamese"(which is the name of nationality) doesn't have any lesser range of look than other Asian like you said. Sure they are Khmer/ Montagnard not Kinh, but they are born in the border of Vietnam, so that makes them citizen of Vietnam and have nation of Vietnamese.

Just like when the Khmer born in border of Laos/Thailand, they are surely had nationality of Lao/Thai, but ethnically they aren't Dai/Tai.

Quote:
According to this admixture study at http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/09...-al-2010.html:

A: South Asian
B: Altaic
C: Irula (S Indian tribals)
D: !Kung (Khoisan speakers from Africa)
E: Sub-Saharan
F: Polynesian
G: Southeast Asian
H: Pygmy
I: West Asian
J: European
K: Amerindian
L: Northeast Asian
Nope....I can't even open the link of your source. So that will autometically discredit that graph you posted.

(Btw that graph is really funny, doesn't it shown that Khmer-Cambodian has highest Northeast Asian gene among all Southeast Asians lol? I am wondering how those Khmer-Cambodian actually physically look Northeast Asian?)

Here is a graph with real source..




Source: PLOS ONE: Patrilineal Perspective on the Austronesian Diffusion in Mainland Southeast Asia

Thai
C (C-M216) = 17.6%
O2a(O-M95) = 17.6%
O2a1(O-M88)= 5.9%
O3a2c1 (O-M134) = 11.8%
O3a1c (O-002611) = 11.8%
O3a2(O-P201)=4%
O1a1(O-P203)= 11.8%
Q(Q-P36) = 5.9%
K(H-M69) = 5.9%
K(K-P131)= 5.9%


Vietnamese
O2a1(O-M88) = 30.3%
O2a(O-M95) = 11.8%
O3a2b (O-M7) = 10.5%
O3a2(O-P201)= 2.6%
O1a1(O-P203) = 6.6%
C(C-M217) = 11.8%
O (O-P200) = 9.2%
K-P131= 1.3%
N-P231=2.6%
R(R-M17) = 1.3%

Side note: Halogroup C is known as having a lot in Mongolian and Kazakhstani
 
Old 10-14-2013, 04:57 PM
 
138 posts, read 643,852 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warranthad View Post

Look at how many topics he has made on so many different forums. Surely it has to be the same person?
And?

Weren't your Vietnamese is the one that setting this type of topic around the internet to compare yourself to us Lao/Thai and claim relationship with East Asian the most?

Some examples:
VIETNAMESE ARE MOST RELATED TO CHINESE forum
the origins of ethnic vietnamese forum
Are Vietnamese Chinese? - Overseas Chinese - China History Forum, Chinese History Forum
Are Vietnamese People related to Chinese People? - Yahoo! Answers
Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Are Vietnamese and Chinese the same?
Nanyue (Nam Viet) Are the people of Vietnam and - Asia Finest Discussion Forum
The Origin of Vietnamese People - Asia Finest Discussion Forum
Origin of Vietnamese - Asia Finest Discussion Forum
Vietnamese origin/DNA Research Studies - Asia Finest Discussion Forum
In Search of the Origin of the Vietnamese People - Asia Finest Discussion Forum
Who Are The Vietnamese? Where Did They Come From? - Asia Finest Discussion Forum
Genetics of the Vietnamese - Asian Anthropology - China History Forum, Chinese History Forum

one of the example that I love the most...
A Vietnamese name "blacskar" of Asiantown
This is what he posted lol.
Quote:
To the liars who deny vietnamese history and origin. who are you to deny vietnamese history. jealous people said that vietnamese have always been in SEA and grouped together with khmers. No, ethnic vietnamese are descendants of the yue people from northern vietnam and western guangdong. that is our relationship with the cantonese. cantonese are han chinese with some native yue blood of guangdong. vietnamese also have native yue blood from western guangdong. vietnamese are not true SEA people that people have said we are. rather we are descendants of yue people from western guangdong and northern vietnam.

"Peter Bellwood suggested that, ethnic Vietnamese are descended from the ancient Yu of northern Vietnam and western Guangdong"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanyue#Vietnam
Original link:http://forums.asiantown.net/t/318630...nic-vietnamese

So what is wrong if I creat some of this type of topic as payback to you too?
 
Old 10-14-2013, 05:48 PM
 
10 posts, read 32,612 times
Reputation: 15
Sorry friend but you are a proven pathological liar.

I know this for a fact because you have lied about your ancestry many times. In this topic, you said you were Singaporean Chinese, in Eastbound88 you said you were Thai, and on Asiantown you said you were Laotian. You'll take on any identity to further your agenda; how can anyone trust what you have to say? Not that that matters anyways because no one knowledgeable or have come into contact with either ethnic groups will affirm your beliefs.

I'm already done exposing you for what you are: a lying fraud with an immense inferiority complex.

Last edited by Warranthad; 10-14-2013 at 06:00 PM..
 
Old 10-14-2013, 06:36 PM
 
138 posts, read 643,852 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warranthad View Post
Sorry friend but you are a proven pathological liar.

I know this for a fact because you have lied about your ancestry many times. In this topic, you said you were Singaporean Chinese, in Eastbound88 you said you were Thai, and on Asiantown you said you were Laotian. You'll take on any identity to further your agenda; how can anyone trust what you have to say? Not that that matters anyways because no one knowledgeable or have come into contact with either ethnic groups will affirm your beliefs.

I'm already done exposing you for what you are: a lying fraud with an immense inferiority complex.
Prove where did I said that I am a Singaporean Chinese?

In fact I said that I am a Lao in this post of mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio_Auditore View Post
I am not a Vietnamese, I am Lao but I have experiance of living/working in both Thailand and Vietnam.

Vietnamese those from different culture have more sence of unity than Thai those from different culture? Well that seem to be the effect of Communism like you said. Communism is known to forcing, Democratic is known to freedom. Vietnamese communist government is generally forcing people from different culture into the same way, while Thai democracy government giving people freedom about culture.

BUT, all of those mention above are only about cuturally stuffs which only have effect about way of life of the people and have nothing to do when we talking about racially. Just because Vietnamese is cutually more united (from forcing by communist gov.) that doesn't mean that they are going to be racially more homogenous than Thai.

Another thing is Center Thai/Northern Thai/Upper Issan Thai(Lao) are only different about 20%, while 80% are still the same. All of Center Thai first langauge speaker can understand Northern Thai/ Upper Issan Thai (Lao) about 80%.

But when it comes to Southern Thai(Malay)/Lower Issan Thai(Khmer), Center Thai first langauge speaker completely can't understand anything at all, not even a single word. Both are complately different from Center Thai/Northern Thai/Upper Issan Thai(Lao).

Center Thai/Northern Thai/Upper Issan Thai(Lao) all are considered to be Tai-Kadai, Southern Thai(Malay) is considered to be Austronesian, Lower Issan Thai(Khmer) is considered to be Mon-Khmer.
Anyway, my identity doesn't change the "facts" I said, doesn't matter what is my identity the facts I said are still true. And as far as I see after had been arguing with over 100 of Vietnameses, none of them be able to prove this statement of mine wrong "Vietnamese is basically Mon-Khmer people under Chinese cloth".

Can you prove it wrong?

Quote:
Not that that matters anyways because no one knowledgeable or have come into contact with either ethnic groups will affirm your beliefs
Why don't you ask people those have "been to all parts" since North to South of Laos/Thailand/Vietnam? Let see what they are going to tell you.
 
Old 10-27-2013, 12:50 PM
 
5 posts, read 10,509 times
Reputation: 12
Hi Ezio

I'm a Vietnamse who're reading about SEA history and accidentally find this forum, when searching about "Kinh people".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio_Auditore View Post
And?

Weren't your Vietnamese is the one that setting this type of topic around the internet to compare yourself to us Lao/Thai and claim relationship with East Asian the most?
one of the example that I love the most...
A Vietnamese name "blacskar" of Asiantown
This is what he posted lol.
Weird, all the links you gave are from that blackar guy, and judge from his attitude and words (using strong words and capitalized character), I think he is a non-Vietnamse guy who are trying to separate Vietnamese to other SEA people.

Why do I think that? Because it looks like he very hate other SEA people. We Vietnamese don't hate Khmer, Laotian or any people living in SEA, but we hate Chinese for 1000 years rule and plot of re-domination these years.

Quote:

Original link:the origins of ethnic vietnamese forum

So what is wrong if I creat some of this type of topic as payback to you too?
I have to correct about Nanyue. That Nanyue is not Vietnamese dynasty. We don't count it as VN people history. Nanyue king is from a tribute of Southern China, who beat "Two Trung Ladies" of VN to rule VN.

1 of ancient VN history books (Dai Viet Su Ki) counted Nanyue, but because of another reason. At that time, we VN had just been out of Chinese rule. The history book author then wanted to bring a symbol about resitance to northern Chinese Dynasty, so he count Nanyue. At the time of Nanyue, China are of many small kingdoms, which the most powerful was "Nam Hn"/"Southern Han" and Nanyue was one of other smaller kingdoms and fight against that big "Nam Hn".

About the idea "ethnic Vietnamese are descended from the ancient Yu of northern Vietnam and western Guangdong", you should notice that it is only Peter Bellwood's hypothesis, not a wide-acceptance one. And note that this idea is only mentioned in the wiki article about "nanyue", not the article about "Vietnam".

About origin of VN people, it is a long story and historians are still arguing this. It must be difficult, because people always travel and mix. But I believe Kinh people are one in SEA people group, and general have whiter skin (can be seen as point to distinguish with other SEA people?)

Last edited by hongquan; 10-27-2013 at 01:08 PM..
 
Old 10-27-2013, 02:43 PM
 
138 posts, read 643,852 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by hongquan View Post
Hi Ezio

I'm a Vietnamse who're reading about SEA history and accidentally find this forum, when searching about "Kinh people".



Weird, all the links you gave are from that blackar guy, and judge from his attitude and words (using strong words and capitalized character), I think he is a non-Vietnamse guy who are trying to separate Vietnamese to other SEA people.

Why do I think that? Because it looks like he very hate other SEA people. We Vietnamese don't hate Khmer, Laotian or any people living in SEA, but we hate Chinese for 1000 years rule and plot of re-domination these years.

I have to correct about Nanyue. That Nanyue is not Vietnamese dynasty. We don't count it as VN people history. Nanyue king is from a tribute of Southern China, who beat "Two Trung Ladies" of VN to rule VN.

1 of ancient VN history books (Dai Viet Su Ki) counted Nanyue, but because of another reason. At that time, we VN had just been out of Chinese rule. The history book author then wanted to bring a symbol about resitance to northern Chinese Dynasty, so he count Nanyue. At the time of Nanyue, China are of many small kingdoms, which the most powerful was "Nam Hn"/"Southern Han" and Nanyue was one of other smaller kingdoms and fight against that big "Nam Hn".

About the idea "ethnic Vietnamese are descended from the ancient Yu of northern Vietnam and western Guangdong", you should notice that it is only Peter Bellwood's hypothesis, not a wide-acceptance one. And note that this idea is only mentioned in the wiki article about "nanyue", not the article about "Vietnam".

About origin of VN people, it is a long story and historians are still arguing this. It must be difficult, because people always travel and mix. But I believe Kinh people are one in SEA people group, and general have whiter skin (can be seen as point to distinguish with other SEA people?)
If blackar isn't a Viet, then how about other guys in other links? They all started out that they are Vietnamese themselves.

The fact is, based on the evidences. Vietnamese(Kinh) are definitely related to Mon-Khmer/Cambodian/Khmer and not any form of Baiyue(Original people of Southern China) like those Vietnamese trolls love to promote to people.

Baiyue were Tai-Kadai people like Dai/Tai(Lao/Thai) Zhuang and other Tai group, as well as other tribes whom were living in S.China during Han-Chinese expansion Southward (and Vietnamese isn't in Baiyue group becasue they are Mon-Khmer in Southeast Asia).

Kinh(Vietnamese) are considered to be Mon-Khmer people as well as having history of been living in Southeast Asia for over 4800 years(since 2879 BC, which based on the first history ever recorded).
Source: H

The similarities culturally that Vietnamese shared with the Chinese are the result of get invaded and ruled by Han-Chinese in 111 BC.

Quote:
The Vietnamese paid heavy tributes and taxes to the Hans. The Han mandarins tried to occupy large areas of land and changed them into Chinese style farms and brought Chinese peasants to work them. The Chinese attempted to impose Chinese culture, institutions, educational system, politics, language, art, music, architecture and religion on the Vietnamese, and imported Chinese administrators to replace the local nobility. However, implementation of a foreign administrative system and the Sinicization was not easy, frequent uprisings and rebellions were indicative of Vietnamese resistance to these changes.
Under foreign rule, the Vietnamese people had to adopt foreign writing system, but lost much of their spoken language, and their national identity.


The Hans were anxious to extend their control over the fertile Red River Delta, in part to serve as a convenient supply point for Han ships engaged in the growing maritime trade with South and Southeast Asia. During the first century of Chinese rule, Vietnam was governed leniently, and the Lạc lords maintained their feudal offices. In the first century A.D., however, the Han dynasty intensified its efforts to assimilate its new territories by raising taxes and instituting marriage reforms aimed at turning Vietnam into a patriarchal society more amenable to political authority.
Source: First Chinese domination of Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Old 10-27-2013, 02:46 PM
 
138 posts, read 643,852 times
Reputation: 42
Laotian and Thai nationality are having Dai/Tai ethnic as majority ethnic of the nation. Dai/Tai people had history of migrated from Southern China into Southeast Asia in 13th century during Mongolian invasion of China.
Source: Thailand - The Tai People: Origins and Migrations

Dai/Tai(Lao/Thai) are considered to be Tai-Kadai people along with Zhuang as well as other Tai groups.

List of Tai-Kadai people......
Source: Tai

Tai-Kadai(Lao/Thai/Zhuang/other Tai) = are considered to be the native people of Southern China

Mon-Khmer(Vietnamese/Khmer/Wa/Blang/Deang/ other Mon-khmer) = are considered to be the native people of mainland Southeast Asia.
 
Old 10-28-2013, 04:54 AM
 
5 posts, read 10,509 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio_Auditore View Post
If blackar isn't a Viet, then how about other guys in other links? They all started out that they are Vietnamese themselves.

The fact is, based on the evidences. Vietnamese(Kinh) are definitely related to Mon-Khmer/Cambodian/Khmer and not any form of Baiyue(Original people of Southern China) like those Vietnamese trolls love to promote to people.
I think those guy are from China. From time to time, Chinese rulers have been trying to convert our VN to Han, or to make our VN think that we belong to Han, to suppress ours resistance.

If some scholars says that we VN originates from South Chinese tributes, I think those guy only bases on the similarity in the culture, instead of conducting a serious research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio_Auditore View Post
Baiyue were Tai-Kadai people like Dai/Tai(Lao/Thai) Zhuang and other Tai group, as well as other tribes whom were living in S.China during Han-Chinese expansion Southward (and Vietnamese isn't in Baiyue group becasue they are Mon-Khmer in Southeast Asia).

Kinh(Vietnamese) are considered to be Mon-Khmer people as well as having history of been living in Southeast Asia for over 4800 years(since 2879 BC, which based on the first history ever recorded).
Source: H
I agree that Kinh people have lived for thousands of years in this Vietnam territory, and I don't believe that ancient Kinh people have genetic connection with those South Chinese tributes.

I also doubt that ancient Kinh have genetic connection with Mon-Khmer, because our language is classified in Vietic group, which is sibling of Mon-Khmer in Austroasiatic family, not under Mon-Khmer.

But how much modern Kinh differ from ancient Kinh, and how much modern Kinh people has mixed with Mon-Khmer, Chinese and with Borneo people are not-solve-clearly-yet questions. I'm still waiting for the historians argument.

Last edited by hongquan; 10-28-2013 at 05:02 AM..
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