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Old 12-23-2013, 04:31 PM
 
101 posts, read 231,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smtchll View Post
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/tst...ern%20Laos.JPG
LOL. Nobody looks at that picture and thinks "Indian kids" They look like Mainland Southeast Asian or possible Southern EAST Asian kids, which makes sense since you said they're in Northern Laos. What are you even arguing here? You said that I would think they look Bicol, but I'm saying that they look too chinky to look Bicol or any other kind of Filipino. I mean this as a group. Individually, you could scattered them throughout the Phlippines and they'd pass, but seeing them as a group, Filipino wouldnt be my first guess
Actually, what race you look like depends on more than just eye size alone. It it's as you say then all Europeans with beady eyes would look East Asian. They don't. As a southern Chinese myself I can safely say that most of the kids in there don't look southern EAST Asian. Their face is too low, the eyes are too deep, and the cheekbones and the mouth structure simply doesn't fit. There's no way they look "too" Chinky, not even close. They'd pass easier as Filipinos than the southernmost southern Chinese.

 
Old 12-23-2013, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastardised View Post
Actually, what race you look like depends on more than just eye size alone. It it's as you say then all Europeans with beady eyes would look East Asian. They don't. As a southern Chinese myself I can safely say that most of the kids in there don't look southern EAST Asian. Their face is too low, the eyes are too deep, and the cheekbones and the mouth structure simply doesn't fit. There's no way they look "too" Chinky, not even close. They'd pass easier as Filipinos than the southernmost southern Chinese.
I'd say facially they're definitely Mongoloid not Caucasoid/Indic, the boy with his blue shirt pulled up looks 'chinky' and could easily pass in China or something. Some Cambodians have pretty 'chinky' facial features but dark skin, while some have the features you describe, which are more typical of more 'pure' Austronesians or even Austroasiatics.
 
Old 12-23-2013, 10:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
I'd say facially they're definitely Mongoloid not Caucasoid/Indic, the boy with his blue shirt pulled up looks 'chinky' and could easily pass in China or something. Some Cambodians have pretty 'chinky' facial features but dark skin, while some have the features you describe, which are more typical of more 'pure' Austronesians or even Austroasiatics.
Yeah with the exception of the one in blue, the rest pretty much look nothing like East Asians. Many of them even have noticeable prognatism which is supposed to be absent among EA. The dude I quoted said they're too chinky to pass in the Philippines, nonsense. They'd blend perfectly well in places like the Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia, more so than in any of the EA countries. In fact they kind of look like the Ibans in Sarawak which I see almost everyday.
 
Old 12-24-2013, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastardised View Post
Yeah with the exception of the one in blue, the rest pretty much look nothing like East Asians. Many of them even have noticeable prognatism which is supposed to be absent among EA. The dude I quoted said they're too chinky to pass in the Philippines, nonsense. They'd blend perfectly well in places like the Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia, more so than in any of the EA countries. In fact they kind of look like the Ibans in Sarawak which I see almost everyday.
They would stick out in most of China, also for their dark skin as well as facial features, but this type of look is not totally unknown even among the Southern Han. Some of the Dai, Zhuang or Li people (of Hainan), who are Tai-Kadai speakers and related to the cultural forebearers of the Thai look like this.

Of course they're not 'too chinky' to pass in the Phils. In fact many Filipinos I've met look far moreso, with pale skin and small eyes. In fact most middle/upper class Filipinos could pass in Hong Kong or Bangkok. Even someone who looks pure Chinese can pass since Filipinos can be almost fully from China.
 
Old 12-24-2013, 10:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
They would stick out in most of China, also for their dark skin as well as facial features, but this type of look is not totally unknown even among the Southern Han. Some of the Dai, Zhuang or Li people (of Hainan), who are Tai-Kadai speakers and related to the cultural forebearers of the Thai look like this.

Of course they're not 'too chinky' to pass in the Phils. In fact many Filipinos I've met look far moreso, with pale skin and small eyes. In fact most middle/upper class Filipinos could pass in Hong Kong or Bangkok. Even someone who looks pure Chinese can pass since Filipinos can be almost fully from China.
Maybe among the southerners, but it's still uncommon to find that kind of look among the southern Han. "Too Chinky" is an inaccurate term if they can pass better as Filipinos than Chinese. Middle/Upper Class Filipinos most likely have some Chinese ancestry, like in Indonesia and Thailand.
 
Old 12-24-2013, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastardised View Post
Maybe among the southerners, but it's still uncommon to find that kind of look among the southern Han. "Too Chinky" is an inaccurate term if they can pass better as Filipinos than Chinese. Middle/Upper Class Filipinos most likely have some Chinese ancestry, like in Indonesia and Thailand.
Given in some areas on China, such as Guangxi or Yunnan, there was recent mixing with peoples related to the Thai/Dai, and assimilation into the Han, it's not surprising. Cantonese and Min-ren tend to have variably Austronesian admixture.
 
Old 12-26-2013, 02:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
Given in some areas on China, such as Guangxi or Yunnan, there was recent mixing with peoples related to the Thai/Dai, and assimilation into the Han, it's not surprising. Cantonese and Min-ren tend to have variably Austronesian admixture.
Actually I've heard that the Dai people are not of that Malay-looking stock. I don't remember where, possibly CHF, some anthropology forum or even here. Anyway, if you look at the pictures of some ethnic minorities in South China, some actually look quite East Asian already. Maybe those in SE China aren't so that's how the Chinese there gained their Austronesian look.
 
Old 12-26-2013, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastardised View Post
Actually I've heard that the Dai people are not of that Malay-looking stock. I don't remember where, possibly CHF, some anthropology forum or even here. Anyway, if you look at the pictures of some ethnic minorities in South China, some actually look quite East Asian already. Maybe those in SE China aren't so that's how the Chinese there gained their Austronesian look.
Well the original Dai do look more E.Asia than a lot of Thais (who are a mix of Dai and natives), and yes, they found a lot of ethnic minorities are very similar to the Han living nearby, which is not surprising because many of these groups were 'sinicised' into the dominant culture. The Austronesian admixture is however still present in the Southern Chinese, as Southern China inhabited by Austronesian type people thousands of years ago, as in Taiwan.
 
Old 12-30-2013, 10:59 PM
 
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That first pic of the 'Hanoi Vietnamese' children is in fact from the Mekong Delta - a famous tourist site, which I can back up with the bridge in the background. The Mekong Delta was incorporated into Vietnamese territory extremely recently - within the last 100-200 years. Meaning that is an area that hasn't been fully assimilated by the Vietnamese and people of Khmer origin are still obvious. The Vietnamese generally do not 'inter-mingle' with the Khmer; meaning that they are almost completely segregated. Probably due to racial and cultural differences which is clearly obvious in the more Sinitic Vietnamese as opposed to the Indianised Khmer.
As you have mentioned a countless number of times, and I would like to take this moment to appreciate your continuing "perseverance", that there is no evidence of Vietnamese coming from the North - I'd like to go against your point.
In Vietnamese tales, which have been passed down generation to generation, it is said that the Shang or Yin (or 'An' as referred to in Vietnamese) invaded the Ancient Vietnamese many times but the Vietnamese stood bold and withstood. The Shang, also known as Yin/An, began around Central (maybe N.Central?) China - why would a civilisation invade a country that far away? Therefore we could say the Ancient Vietnamese bordered the Shang Dynasty and were probably located around what is now known as Southern China.
Another theory is that the people that inhabited Vietnam 2500 years ago were indeed very different from the modern Vietnamese. "The Vietnamese are very closely related to the Southern Chinese. A huge wave of Southern Chinese poured into Vietnam 2,200 years and bred in with existing people. This group came from the Taiwan Strait – the area north of Vietnam along the coast." Through this quote we could say that the Southern Chinese, both Han and minorities, traveled to Vietnam and displaced the people from the Taiwan Strait, which were also of an older Chinese origin. Hence the reason why Vietnamese today resemble their Southern Chinese Han/minority conterparts. One must also exclude the Southern Vietnamese minorities as they are only a result of incorporating new lands from invasion and the recent French colonisation - and are also segregated from the general Vietnamese population.
The original Thai are indeed of Dai origin (not Chinese, because this is only possible through intermarriage). However due to the fact that much of Thailand's territory was historically Khmer and Malay, the vast majority of people now make a new sub-group called the Thai-Malay or Thai-Khmer, even if they do not recognise themselves as so. They constitute more than 30-50% of Thailand's population - making it a majority. Therefore we can say that although past Thai were indeed closely related to S.Chinese minorities; the Modern Thai are however somewhat different representing more of a fusion between Dai, Khmer and Malay. This is not to say that the Thai are not of S.Chinese (excluding Han) origin but today they are a mix, therefore changing the overall identity and look of the Thai.
The Vietnamese however were able displace the Mon-Khmer people (ie Khmer), unlike the Thai, who escaped en masse west. Therefore allowing the newer Vietnamese to move into their new territory whilst evolving a new identity through Chinese influence. The Chinese in Vietnam become very integrated and recognise themselves as Vietnamese in documents rather than Chinese - which is why Vietnam has a population of only 1million Chinese. Therefore the number of Vietnamese-Chinese could be extremely high (some ethnologist even suggest a number as high as 50-70%) and the Vietnamese are genetically closely related to the Zhuang (they share a common myth) - the Muong are also related to the Dai/Zhuang. The Chinese-Vietnamese group in Vietnam is generally considered integrated unlike the Thai-Chinese who usually recognise themselves as "Chinese". Therefore in this context we could say the more Chinese the less integrated or the less Chinese the more integrated - therefore we cannot truly know how many Vietnamese are of 'Han Chinese' origin. We can say by default that the Vietnamese are most definitely related to South Chinese ethnic minorities through genetic papers, which would be 'handy evidence/proof, and by looking at the Muong http://robertlindsay.files.wordpress...3/05/muong.jpg (photo of common Muong people)
"A 2001 HLA study headed by laboratories at the Mackay Memorial Hospital in Taipei (Taiwan) classifies the Vietnamese people in the same genetic cluster as the Miao/Hmong, Southern Han (Southern Chinese), Buyei and Thai, with a divergent family consisting of Thai Chinese, Singapore Chinese, Minnan/Hoklo and Hakka." The divergent family (divergent; meaning basically 'continuously adding on' or a sub-grouping; basically representing a fusion) that the Vietnamese are genetically like the Thai Chinese, Singapore Chinese and other Min peoples. Singularly some Vietnamese show a genetic relationship with Miao/Hmong, Buyei and Thai, which basically means that these are the most common genetic affiliations.

Therefore by generic default we can say that the Vietnamese are closer to the Northern phenotype of Asians than that of the modern Thai.

Last edited by TheNano7474; 12-30-2013 at 11:59 PM..
 
Old 12-30-2013, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,248,336 times
Reputation: 2833
^ good points. Thais without Chinese blood (Dai or later Chinese migration) have more 'native' blood and look less Sinitic than the Viets. Plus you forgot to mention that it was infact the Chinese who settled parts of the Mekong delta before the Viet Kinh. Many intermarried with Khmers, so there are many people in the delta who are of mixed Sino-Khmer ancestry. But yes, the Vietnamese in general look more 'Northeast Asian' than most non-Chinese Thai.
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