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Old 12-31-2013, 12:21 AM
 
6 posts, read 17,802 times
Reputation: 11

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@ Ezio_Auditore Your 'information' is clearly biased and hasn't involved 'research'. You can't simply add groups of people to make another. The majority of Khmer and Cham people migrated either west into Cambodia, south-east to Malaysia or north to Hainan, where they are known as the Tsat people. The Vietnamese stayed extremely segregated from these minorities as a result of racial and cultural differences - in Vietnam, the Cham are a lost remnant and there are less than 100,000 in Vietnam as opposed to the 80million Kinh Vietnamese.
Many Central and South Vietnamese assimilated the Cham to the extent that it is almost non-existent in their genetics. People in the central may have a great-great-great grandmother that is Cham but this doesn't show up in their appearance because it is too distant.
The Ou Yue/Au Viet and Luo Yue/Lac Viet assimilated and displaced the Mon-Khmer people + 1000years of Chinese domination. This process happened over a period of 2500 years and the Mon-Khmer people would've been long gone by now. The Vietnamese anthem talks about being descendants of the 'Luoyue/Lac Viet' people, who are commonly believed to have come from S.China.
The Thai on the other hand had only begun assimilating the majority Khmer in their territory just recently, leaving a bigger mark in their genetics - this is common knowledge. I too believe that the original Thai were from Southern China, however today too many have roots going back to the Khmer assimilation period - that it has changed the identity of the Thai.

*I would like to point out that you are being very ignorant of others opinions and you are continuously come up with excuses not to affiliate the Vietnamese with their 'proven' (look at genetic papers if you wish) genetic relationships with the Dai, Han Chinese, Hmong/Miao peoples.

Last edited by TheNano7474; 12-31-2013 at 12:53 AM..

 
Old 12-31-2013, 12:22 AM
 
6 posts, read 17,802 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
^ good points. Thais without Chinese blood (Dai or later Chinese migration) have more 'native' blood and look less Sinitic than the Viets. Plus you forgot to mention that it was infact the Chinese who settled parts of the Mekong delta before the Viet Kinh. Many intermarried with Khmers, so there are many people in the delta who are of mixed Sino-Khmer ancestry. But yes, the Vietnamese in general look more 'Northeast Asian' than most non-Chinese Thai.
Yes, I forgot to mention that. After the fall of the Ming dynasty, hundreds of thousands Chinese fled to Vietnam. The Nguyen Emperor gave permission for them to settle on Khmer/Cham lands.
 
Old 12-31-2013, 12:34 AM
 
6 posts, read 17,802 times
Reputation: 11
One thing I would like to mention is that the Vietnamese aren't commonly included in genetic researches (of East Asia) due to the fact that they are too diverse - Sinitic, Dai, Hmong-Miao, Austro-Tai. Sino-Malay and even Altaic origins are some common types in Vietnam.

Last edited by TheNano7474; 12-31-2013 at 12:55 AM..
 
Old 12-31-2013, 08:37 PM
 
10 posts, read 32,586 times
Reputation: 15
The Boxer Codex manuscripts written in 1595 illustrated various ethnic groups living in the Philippines at the time. I believe it is a valuable tool for comparing various Asian ethnic groups at the time. The people depicted were Chinese, Siamese (Thai), Vietnamese from Caupchy, Filipino, Japanese, Mollucans (Indonesia), Zambales (Filipinos), and Negritos.




As anyone can clearly see, Vietnamese/Caupchy were more "Northeast Asian" than Thai/Siamese. The wikipedia article on the Boxer Codex has more pictures if you wish to see them: Boxer Codex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This should soundly settle the "debate" (in reality it's one guy with multiple accounts arguing in circles with himself). Let's see how he argues against this.

- Topic creator will argue this is biased selective evidence.
I didn't select anything; you should blame the artist in 1595 for "cherrypicking".

- Topic creator will argue Siamese people were misrepresented.
Clearly these people were identified to be from Siam and even wore their traditional Siamese attire.

- Topic creator will claim people from Caupchy were not Vietnamese.
Caupchy is the same as Giao Chỉ or Jiāozhǐ which was an early name for what is now Vietnam. The woman wears a distinct Vietnamese attire.

 
Old 12-31-2013, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,228,213 times
Reputation: 2833
^ Vietnamese are culturally and physically more Sinitic, I don't think anyone can deny that.
 
Old 01-11-2014, 12:06 AM
 
8 posts, read 24,632 times
Reputation: 12
I see Xun Lao is at it again. He got banned on Eastbound88 for his trolling. Anyways, I am Vietnamese and I got my genetic testing on 23andme. Once your results are finalized you are able to connect and share ancestry composition with your distant relatives. Here are some of my distant relatives that I share results with. I noted their maternal and paternal haplotype, what regions they are from, and how many segments of DNA I shared with them. Most of my relatives from Vietnam are from the Central and Southern regions.

I will start with the one I have highest relation to:


[SIZE=3]Distant relative K. L (Vietnamese): 0.27% shared, 1 segment (B4c1b2 haplotype)[/SIZE] She is from Da Nang, Vietnam and Saigon, Vietnam.
Standard Composition:

99.1%
East Asian & Native American

East Asian Chinese
38.9%


Nonspecific East Asian 28.6%
Southeast Asian 24.5%

Nonspecific East Asian 7.0%



Speculative Composition:


99.6%
East Asian & Native American

East Asian
Chinese 56%

Southeast Asian 36.9%
Nonspecific East Asian 3.4%

Nonspecific East Asian & Native American
0.1%
European
0.1%
Nonspecific European

----------------------------------------------------



[SIZE=4]T. T :Lao’s Distant Relative (Full Laos per her) 3rd to Distant Cousin: She is from Savanakhet, Laos and Mukdahan, Thailand
0.24% shared, 1 segment ( F1a1 haplotype)
[/SIZE]

Speculative Composition:

East Asian & Native American 99.6%

Southeast Asian 77.5%

East Asian Chinese 18.4%



Standard Composition:

East Asian & Native American99.3%

Southeast Asian 69.2%

East Asian Chinese 7.3 %



Nonspecific East Asian & Native American 21.4%

0.7%
Unassigned

Nonspecific East Asian 1.4

Nonspecific East Asian & Native American 0.9%

Middle Eastern & North African 0.2%

Middle Eastern 0.2%


-------------------------------------------------
My Chinese distant cousin.

[SIZE=3]L. Z - Chinese Distant Cousin 3rd to Distant Cousin[/SIZE] : From China
0.18% shared, 2 segments
(C4a1 and O1a1 haplotype)


Standard Mode:


99.0% East Asian & Native American

East Asian Chinese 83.9%

Korean 1.1%

Nonspecific East Asian 12.3%

Nonspecific East Asian & Native American 1.8%

European 0.1%
Nonspecific European 0.9%

Speculative Mode

East Asian Chinese 92.8%

Korean 4.3%

Nonspecific East Asian 2.2%

Nonspecific East Asian & Native American < 0.1%

European 0.3%

Nonspecific European 0.2%

Middle Eastern & North African 0.2%

Nonspecific Middle Eastern & North African 0.2%
-------------------------------------------------------------

My distant cousin who lives in the same city I am from!


[[SIZE=3]Distant relative 3rd K.T – 6th cousin ( she is white, Chinese, Vietnamese) Her family is from Tra Vinh, Vietnam; Tieu Canh, Vietnam; and Bac Lieu, Vietnam
3rd to Distant Cousin ; 0.16% shared, 1 segment; (F1a1 haplotype)
[/SIZE][/b]
[SIZE=2]
Speculative Composition[/SIZE]

Asian: 49.5%
European 50.0%
Northern European 36.8%

British & Irish 2.6%

French & German 0.4%

Scandinavian 10.2%

Nonspecific Northern European < 0.1%

Nonspecific European 49.5%

Southeast Asian 31.6%
East Asian Chinese 11.6%

Nonspecific East Asian 2.3%

Nonspecific East Asian & Native American 3.9%

South Asian 0.5%


[SIZE=1]
[SIZE=2]Standard Composition:[/SIZE][/SIZE]

50.0% European
Asian 49.2%
Southeast Asian 19.9%
East Asian Chinese 3.8%

Northern European 15.6%
British & Irish 31.1%
Nonspecific Northern European 3.3%
Nonspecific European 49.2%

-----------------------------------

[SIZE=3]T. T. L 3rd to Distant Cousin (Vietnamese) His family is from Hue, Vietnam.
0.14% shared, 1 segment; (Y1b maternal haplotype and J2b2 paternal haplotype) [/SIZE]


[SIZE=2]Speculative Mode:[/SIZE]

Asian & Native American 99.4%

Chinese East Asian 54.8%
Southeast Asian 41.8%

Nonspecific East Asian 1.4%
Nonspecific East Asian & Native American 1.5%

South Asian 0.2%

Sub-Saharan African < 0.1%
< 0.1%
Central & South African 0.4%


[SIZE=2][SIZE=3]Standard Mode:[/SIZE][/SIZE]
Asian & Native American 99.2%

East Asian Chinese 44.1%
Southeast Asian 31.9%

Nonspecific East Asian 4.0%

Nonspecific East Asian & Native American 19.3%

Sub-Saharan African < 0.1%

Central & South African < 0.1%
-------------------------------------------------

[SIZE=3]Distant Relative T.N (Vietnamese)
(Z4A maternal haplotype)[/SIZE]


[SIZE=2]Standard Mode:[/SIZE]

Asian & Native American 98.6%

Chinese East Asian 32.1%
Southeast Asian 36.7%


Nonspecific East Asian6.7%

Nonspecific East Asian & Native American 23.1%

South Asian 0.3%


[SIZE=2]Speculative Mode:[/SIZE]

Asian & Native American 99.2%

Chinese East Asian 46.7%
Southeast Asian 44.1%


Nonspecific East Asian 4.6%

Nonspecific East Asian & Native American 0.5%

South Asian 0.1%

European 0.1%

Nonspecific European 0.1%

Oceanian 0.1%

-----------------------------------------------------------

B][SIZE=3]K.N 0.11% shared 1 segment. F1a1 maternal haplotype and O2a1a paternal haplotype.[/SIZE][/b] He is Vietnamese from Saigon/Ho Chi Minh City.
[SIZE=2]
Standard Mode:
[/SIZE]

East Asian & Native American 99.4%

Southeast Asian 41.3%

East Asian (Chinese) 35.9%

Nonspecific East Asian & Native American 22.2%

South Asian 0.1%



[SIZE=3]Speculative Mode
[/SIZE]

East Asian & Native American 99.7%

East Asian Chinese 45.3%


Nonspecific East Asian 3.9%

Southeast Asian 46.8%

Nonspecific East Asian & Native American 3.8%


------------------------------------------------------------------
My Composition:
Standard Mode:


Speculative Mode:


Here is a screenshot of my ancestry composition, easier to see.
 
Old 01-11-2014, 12:13 AM
 
8 posts, read 24,632 times
Reputation: 12
My information on GED Match:
Eurogenes K13 with matches from 179 populations
1 Dai 94.80%
2 Austroasiatic_Ho 3.24%
3 Cambodian 1.33%
4 Malay 0.47%
5 Sardinian 0.11%
6 Chamar 0.04%
7 Spanish_Galicia 0.01%
8 Algerian 0.00%
9 Moroccan 0.00%
10 Mozabite_Berber 0.00%



Dodecad V3 with matches from 227 populations
1 Vietnamese 63.46%
2 MAS 11.06%
3 Iban 10.19%
4 Cambodians 9.92%
5 Daur 3.11%
6 Lithuanian 1.12%
7 GIH 1.12%
8 Maasai 0.01%
9 MKK 0.00%
10 Tu 0.00%

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Lao's distant relative from Savanakhet, Laos and Mukdahan, Thailand
Eurogenes K13 with matches from 179 populations

1 Dai 91.79%
2 Austroasiatic_Ho 6.43%
3 Papuan 1.19%
4 Sardinian 0.53%
5 Mozabite_Berber 0.04%
6 Moroccan 0.01%
7 North_Italian 0.01%
8 Chamar 0.00%
9 Spanish_Galicia 0.00%
10 Algerian 0.00%



Dodecad V3 with matches from 227 populations
1 Cambodians 46.21%
2 Tujia 34.20%
3 Lahu 13.69%
4 Chenchu 2.67%
5 Daur 1.86%
6 Lithuanian 1.00%
7 Siddi 0.36%
8 BiakaPygmy 0.02%
9 Nganassan_12 0.01%
10 Yakut 0.00%

-----------------------------------------------
No relation to me (another poster on EB88) who is Laos/Cambodian
Eurogenes K13 with matches from 179 populations

1 Malay 51.75%
2 Cambodian 34.32%
3 Dai 13.05%
4 Ethiopian_Gumuz 0.38%
5 NAN_Melanesian 0.34%
6 Papuan 0.12%
7 Austroasiatic_Ho 0.02%
8 Hadza 0.01%
9 Sudanese 0.01%
10 Ethiopian_Anuak 0.00%[/quote]


Quote:
Dodecad V3 with matches from 227 populations

1 Cambodians 43.45%
2 MAS 37.89%
3 Iban 5.07%
4 Irula 4.05%
5 Evenk_15 3.57%
6 Thai 3.14%
7 GIH 1.11%
8 MKK 0.90%
9 Nysha 0.83%
10 Chuvashs_16 0.00%
MAS is Malay


This from a Lao Issan woman from Amnat Charoen, Thailand
Quote:
Eurogenes K13 with matches from 179 populations

0 Unable to determine 0.02%
1 Dai 58.06%
2 Cambodian 22.46%
3 Austroasiatic_Ho 9.10%
4 Vietnamese 4.84%
5 Malay 2.28%
6 Lithuanian 1.09%
7 She 1.08%
8 Lahu 1.07%
9 NAN_Melanesian 0.00%
10 North_Kannadi 0.00%
Quote:
Dodecad V3 with matches from 227 populations

1 Cambodians 42.20%
2 MAS 36.44%
3 Lahu 5.18%
4 Iban 4.91%
5 Koryak_15 4.90%
6 Dai 4.16%
7 Thai 1.14%
8 Chuvashs_16 1.06%
9 Yukagir 0.00%
10 Dolgan 0.00%
-----------------------------------

My results:
World9 Oracle-x Population Fitting (250 populations)
0 Unable to determine 0.02%
1 CDX30 50.51%
2 KHV30 38.13%
3 SAKILLI 3.52%
4 She 3.47%
5 Cambodians 1.47%
6 CHS30 1.44%
7 Ho 1.02%
8 MALAYAN 0.21%
9 Bhunjia 0.11%
10 French_Basque 0.10%



KHV (Kinh in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam) and CDX (Chinese Dai in Xishuangbanna)

Principal component analysis reveals the 1000 Genomes Project does not sufficiently cover the human genetic diversity in Asia


---------------------------------------

This is from a Filipino guy on the same World Oracle calculation.

World9:


1KHV3089.29%
2Khasi3.69%
3S_Italian_Sicilian3.18%
4Papuan2.18%
5WestGreenland1.42%
6Burmanese0.22%
7Korean0.02%
8Chamar0.00%
9Lezgins0.00%
10NAN_Melanesian0.00%
 
Old 01-11-2014, 12:15 AM
 
8 posts, read 24,632 times
Reputation: 12


Look at that global similarity cluster on 23andme. On the global similarity map all my Vietnamese distant relatives and me are placed in the Dai category. My distant cousin who have 45.9% Chinese and 28.6% Southeast Asian is placed in between Chinese and Dai. My Chinese relative, I believe he is from Northern China is placed in the upper spectrum of the Chinese category. I have 52.9% Southeast Asian on standard mode on 23andme (I am the the black dot). That is more than what my distant relatives have, if Northern Vietnamese are in that cluster, they may be closer to where my distant relative with 45.9% Chinese and 28.6% Southeast Asian placement. My Lao's distant relative isn't in that cluster, she just disappear when I zoomed in, so she wasn't placed under the Dai spectrum.
 
Old 01-11-2014, 03:36 AM
 
8 posts, read 24,632 times
Reputation: 12
------------------------------------------------------------------
My Composition:



Speculative Mode:


I posted my standard mode twice, oops. So here is my speculative one.

Last edited by SailorNeptune; 01-11-2014 at 03:50 AM..
 
Old 01-11-2014, 04:05 PM
 
83 posts, read 153,645 times
Reputation: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warranthad View Post
The Boxer Codex manuscripts written in 1595 illustrated various ethnic groups living in the Philippines at the time. I believe it is a valuable tool for comparing various Asian ethnic groups at the time. The people depicted were Chinese, Siamese (Thai), Vietnamese from Caupchy, Filipino, Japanese, Mollucans (Indonesia), Zambales (Filipinos), and Negritos.




As anyone can clearly see, Vietnamese/Caupchy were more "Northeast Asian" than Thai/Siamese. The wikipedia article on the Boxer Codex has more pictures if you wish to see them: Boxer Codex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This should soundly settle the "debate" (in reality it's one guy with multiple accounts arguing in circles with himself). Let's see how he argues against this.

- Topic creator will argue this is biased selective evidence.
I didn't select anything; you should blame the artist in 1595 for "cherrypicking".

- Topic creator will argue Siamese people were misrepresented.
Clearly these people were identified to be from Siam and even wore their traditional Siamese attire.

- Topic creator will claim people from Caupchy were not Vietnamese.
Caupchy is the same as Giao Chỉ or Jiāozhǐ which was an early name for what is now Vietnam. The woman wears a distinct Vietnamese attire.


Actually I think the photos taken by the Europeans in the late 1800s are the best resource on how Asians looked before the "modern' era.

Archive.org is a good resource.
Wikipedia is another good resource as well.
Flickr is also quite good.

Good shot of South Asian types from 150 years ago on flickr:

p42 - 1880 Voyage de l'gypte l'Indochine - Hnh Phan Thanh Gi


p40 - 1880 Voyage de l'gypte l'Indochine - Hnh Ptrus Tr


TONKIN - TNG-DC DE LANG-SON ET SON FILS | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


INDO-CHINESE OF CAO-BANG - M


European Race Type drawing:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13476480@N07/11510590295/

And there are many other archives of these photos in European universities and research institutions and other collections online and offline.


Keep in mind that a lot of the diversity from these older photos is either lost or vastly reduced as a result of the racist dogma and social engineering promoted by whites before, during and since that time. In fact, most of the terminology used stems from the pseudo-science created by whites in that Era: Mongoloid, Negroid, etc are all examples of the nonsense that they made up to justify their own domination. And most times they purposely went about creating the conditions by which darker skinned populations in the places they conquered were either completely or nearly wiped out and replaced by lighter skinned stock. The primary purpose for this is to try to erase the evidence of the fact that ALL of these populations ultimately originated in Africa, with dark skin being the direct evidence. This goes for North America, Central America, South America, the Pacific, South Asia and so on. And then they created these fables about "superior" white genes to cover it all up. Now, the direct colonization may not be as overt as it once was, but they are still pushing their agenda, now using native populations to do their dirty work for them as part of the price of admission into the "white" club. Most of the terms used today are recent terms, even the ones "native" to Asia. Viet and Thai are not the ancient terms for these regions. The original terms were Siam and Annam for Thai and Viet, just as Camdodia was originally Khambuja. And all these original terms were reference to dark tropical South Asian ethnic populations not light North East Asian types.

Perfect example the large number of photos from Dutch Indonesia in the late 1800s and the plantations and Eugenics program of the Dutch East Indies. A lot of what we call race science, eugenics and scientific genocide started in South Asia during this time, with whites openly claiming to want to create a "new" race by mixing populations.

Last edited by GreyFox; 01-11-2014 at 04:22 PM..
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