Who is genetically more Northeast Asian Thai/Tai/Dai or Viet/Kinh? (country, place)
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We were talking about S.Chinese and Vietnamese, not all SE Asians. Vietnamese are themselves different from Thai, Malay, Khmer.etc. That the Viets look more North-east Asian is obvious even to non-Asians. I can see some SEA in many of them, but many could easily pass in S.China. I never claimed that a typical pure Malay could pass in S.China, although I've even seen many pale Malays who could pass for Chinese and dark Chinese who are mistaken for Malay.
As for skin colour, I think the lightness of N.Chinese is actually exaggerated. I think it's more a city vs rural and class thing. There are dark peasants in the north and very pale urban dwellers in the south. In Vietnam there are some women who look lily-white who are ethnic Kinh.
Vietnamese are Mon-Khmer(Austro-Asiantic) who originated from Indonesia and moved into Red River Delta. After that they got invaded and ruled by Han-Chinese.
Thai are Tai-Kadai who originated in S.China at first place before Han-Chinese expansion from the North. After that they moved into Southeast Asia in 12 century becasue of Mongolian invasion.
So based on all historically/migrantion evidences. There are no way that Vietnamese are going to be more racially North-east more than the Thai like you are claiming about based on your own believing (the only think that Vietnamese have more Northeast Asian than Thai is their culture).
Another thing is I didn't meant to offence you by saying that you alway claim based on your own believing. But I alway see you saying like "I believing/ I doubt/ I think", by saying "I believing/ I doubt/ I think" means that what you say are going to be based on your own idea and not based on source and information.
As I said, I was originally talking about Vietnamese, not all SEA's. Like East or NEA's, they're a diverse group. I never said I couldn't tell SEA's from NEA's apart, except for some Vietnamese. If you go to Thailand, you'll see people who span the gamut, because it's a real mix. The Dai, cultural forebearers of the Thai people, came from Yunnan province from about 1200 AD! That's the Tang dynasty! Have a look at how Dai in China look.
I've been to bars in Bangkok and Phuket and a lot of the girls there look pretty Chinese. Some probably are or partially are. A lot of drunk Western men probably wouldn't immediately be able to tell the difference...but yeah, obviously, I can generally tell the difference between a Thai, Cantonese and Beijinger.
Thai is mixed of Dai/Chinese/Khmer/Malay, Vietnamese is mixed of Kinh(Mon-Khmer)/Chinese/Khmer/Cham(Malay related). So both nationality are mixed.
But the funny thing you are doing is you alway trying to giving exception that Vietnamese aren't mixed. but pointing out that Thai are mixed.
What you saying isn't logical at all becasue based on source of information Dai/Tai ethnic ethnic make up 75-85% of Thailand population and Kinh ethnic are make up 86% of Vietnam total population. I don't think the 1-10% differences between purity of race isn't going to make any signefican different about who is more pure.
Vietnamese are Mon-Khmer(Austro-Asiantic) who originated from Indonesia and moved into Red River Delta. After that they got invaded and ruled by Han-Chinese.
Thai are Tai-Kadai who originated in S.China at first place before Han-Chinese expansion from the North. After that they moved into Southeast Asia in 12 century becasue of Mongolian invasion.
So based on all historically/migrantion evidences. There are no way that Vietnamese are going to be more racially North-east more than the Thai like you are claiming about based on your own believing (the only think that Vietnamese have more Northeast Asian than Thai is their culture).
Another thing is I didn't meant to offence you by saying that you alway claim based on your own believing. But I alway see you saying like "I believing/ I doubt/ I think", by saying "I believing/ I doubt/ I think" means that what you say are going to be based on your own idea and not based on source and information.
Where is the source that Vietnamese came from Indonesia? When did this migration occur? There are all kinds of strange theories out there, I would take them with a grain of salt. Most Vietnamese would disagree with you, they claim they've been in Vietnam for up to 20,000 years...whoever lived in Vietnam that long ago, we don't know how they looked like, but I'm pretty sure they looked different to current Vietnamese.
Relatedness charts show Vietnamese are similar to S.Chinese. Thai aren't too different too, they came from S.China less than 1,000 years ago so they're similar to Southern Han.
Oh I see the wikipedia article about the out of Indonesia theory...that occurred a long long time ago, well before any Viet civilisation...the wiki article says '600,000 to 12,000 years ago'...i thought the most popular theory is that we all came out of Africa 100,000 or so years ago. Then there was a split between those that became Caucasians, and Mongoloid-Australoid. The ones that came via Indonesia were likely Australoid types, sort of Veddoid, dark skin, curly hair, nothing like current Viets, if you have eyes it should be obvious. But these ppl, we can't be sure how they looked, but certainly since then Vietnam has been far more influenced by more northerly genetics. Once can tell at a glance. And if we're talking tens of thousands of years ago it's likely the ancestors of who would become to Chinese.etc also came via SEA, although it's equally likely they came via Central Asia. I think 12,000 years ago a lot of the ancestors of the Chinese came from Central Asia and Russia, the more northerly Mongoloid type of the original Chinese. The early people that resembled Australian aborigines might have left little more than a tiny mark in Vietnamese genetics, like negritos are marginal in SEA where they used to dominate. In terms of how ppl looked, 20,000 years ago most of SEA was dominated by dark-skinned, short, curly hair negrito types...most SEA's today are from the north, Thai, Viet, Malay, Javanese...
Oh I see the wikipedia article about the out of Indonesia theory...that occurred a long long time ago, well before any Viet civilisation...the wiki article says '600,000 to 12,000 years ago'...i thought the most popular theory is that we all came out of Africa 100,000 or so years ago. Then there was a split between those that became Caucasians, and Mongoloid-Australoid. The ones that came via Indonesia were likely Australoid types, sort of Veddoid, dark skin, curly hair, nothing like current Viets, if you have eyes it should be obvious. But these ppl, we can't be sure how they looked, but certainly since then Vietnam has been far more influenced by more northerly genetics. Once can tell at a glance. And if we're talking tens of thousands of years ago it's likely the ancestors of who would become to Chinese.etc also came via SEA, although it's equally likely they came via Central Asia. I think 12,000 years ago a lot of the ancestors of the Chinese came from Central Asia and Russia, the more northerly Mongoloid type of the original Chinese. The early people that resembled Australian aborigines might have left little more than a tiny mark in Vietnamese genetics, like negritos are marginal in SEA where they used to dominate. In terms of how ppl looked, 20,000 years ago most of SEA was dominated by dark-skinned, short, curly hair negrito types...most SEA's today are from the north, Thai, Viet, Malay, Javanese...
Well actually we don't even have to go that long like 20000 years to prove that who is more racially related to Northeast Asian, Thai or Vietnamese?
Even based on 4000 years ago (when the firstly history of Viet civilization ever recorded) Viet on that time were alredy in Southeast Asia and have been living in Southeast Asia until today.
When compare to the Thai, they were still in China around Yunnan/Guangxi/Southern Sichuan/Southern Guizhou and lived over there for 3200 years not make it into Southeast Asia until 800 years ago where Mongolian invade their home in China.
Well actually we don't even have to go that long like 20000 years to prove that who is more racially related to Northeast Asian, Thai or Vietnamese?
Even based on 4000 years ago (when the firstly history of Viet civilization ever recorded) Viet on that time were alredy in Southeast Asia and have been living in Southeast Asia until today.
When compare to the Thai, they were still in China around Yunnan/Guangxi/Southern Sichuan/Southern Guizhou and lived over there for 3200 years not make it into Southeast Asia until 800 years ago where Mongolian invade their home in China.
It's not that simple. Look how close northern Vietnam is to China. The Vietnamese largely became the same people as the Southern Chinese, both before and after the Han expansion and occupation of Vietnam for 1,000 years. That's a long time, so there was some mixing of Chinese and Vietnamese. Many in Hanoi can pass for Chinese.
"Before the Chinese actually colonized Vietnam, groups from southern China began to move into the Tonkin Delta in order to start new lives after being forced to leave their homelands."
This is obvious. Nam Viet included S.China, Guangxi province. There's even the legends that the Vietnamese people that suggests significant Chinese origin (I'm talking pre-Qin dynasty of course). These people would be the 'barbarians' that Chinese chronicles talked about who inhabited Southern China, the Bai Yue etc. Later migrations from China Sinified Vietnam both culturally and genetically. The genetic imprint should be obvious.
It's not that simple. Look how close northern Vietnam is to China. The Vietnamese largely became the same people as the Southern Chinese, both before and after the Han expansion and occupation of Vietnam for 1,000 years. That's a long time, so there was some mixing of Chinese and Vietnamese. Many in Hanoi can pass for Chinese.
Well Red River Delta where Vietnamese live was under China but the areas those Thai live before migrant into Southeast Asia was inside S.Chna itself.
Another thing is that before the Chinese invasion there was no clearly evidence between relationship of Vietnamese and Chinese. So you can't say that they were close to Chinese even before the Chinese invasion.
On the other hand Vietnamese considered to be Mon-Khmer(Austro-Asiantic) ethnic along with Khmer at first place, so that means before the Chinese invasion Vietnamese seem to be closer to the Khmer.
en seen many pale Malays who could pass for Chinese and dark Chinese who are mistaken for Malay.
As for skin colour, I think the lightness of N.Chinese is actually exaggerated. I think it's more a city vs rural and class thing. There are dark peasants in the north and very pale urban dwellers in the south. In Vietnam there are some women who look lily-white who are ethnic Kinh.
That 's correct. Skin color of East Asia people is depen sunshine. Nothern Chinese living in river Yellow area have darker than Southern Chinese living in Sichuan or Hunan. In North Vietnam, people have lightest skin at Spring when cloudy all day . They change more dark in Summer and Autumn.
Last edited by cholonman; 08-23-2013 at 09:01 PM..
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