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Well Red River Delta where Vietnamese live was under China but the areas those Thai live before migrant into Southeast Asia was inside S.Chna itself.
Another thing is that before the Chinese invasion there was no clearly evidence between relationship of Vietnamese and Chinese. So you can't say that they were close to Chinese even before the Chinese invasion.
On the other hand Vietnamese considered to be Mon-Khmer(Austro-Asiantic) ethnic along with Khmer at first place, so that means before the Chinese invasion Vietnamese seem to be closer to the Khmer.
Before the Chinese invasion the majority of Chinese, under the Qin-Han, were living north of the Yangtze, although the southward migration was in full sway and Southern China was getting Sinified. So no, the Qin and Van Lang weren't really related.
BUT, of course, the peoples living in China mixed with invaders from the north, and it is these people primarily that link the Southern Chinese and the Vietnamese. Vietnamese genetically lie somewhere between Khmer and Southern Chinese...I would venture to say, purely from having travelled across the country and observing countless people in Saigon, Nha Trang, Hoi An, Hue, Hanoi, that Khmer admixture gradually increases as one heads south. The Vietnamese invaded the Khmer lands of southern VN and hence that is why some in the South look so Khmer. Original Viets were very distinct from Khmer, and Vietnamese and Khmer language aren't that close, even my Vietnamese friend says so.
That 's correct. Skin color of East Asia people is depen sunshine. Nothern Chinese living in area river Yellow have darker than Southern Chinese living in Sichuan or Hunan.
Actually the North China plain tends to be sunnier than Sichuan, which is very cloudy.
"Before the Chinese actually colonized Vietnam, groups from southern China began to move into the Tonkin Delta in order to start new lives after being forced to leave their homelands."
This is obvious. Nam Viet included S.China, Guangxi province. There's even the legends that the Vietnamese people that suggests significant Chinese origin (I'm talking pre-Qin dynasty of course). These people would be the 'barbarians' that Chinese chronicles talked about who inhabited Southern China, the Bai Yue etc. Later migrations from China Sinified Vietnam both culturally and genetically. The genetic imprint should be obvious.
The group that moved from S.China into Tonkin Delta obviously not the same group of Vietnamese that currently live in Red River Delta at first place. If they were the same group then Vietnamese would be speak some kind of Sino-tibetan language instead of Mon-Khmer language alredy. Because as we all know that ethnics in S.China are either Sino-tibetan or Tai-Kadai and almost none of Mon-khmer
Also the S.Chinese group that moved into Tonkin Delta doesn't seem to be big group either. Becasue if they were bigger population than the original Mon-Khmer Vietnamese that have been living over there at first place, the society itself would alredy forced everyone to speak the language that most people speak. Which mean the oriignal Mon-Khmer Vietnamese those living in Red River Delta at first place were outnumber the S.Chinese group who move to Tonkin Delta.
Before the Chinese invasion the majority of Chinese, under the Qin-Han, were living north of the Yangtze, although the southward migration was in full sway and Southern China was getting Sinified. So no, the Qin and Van Lang weren't really related.
BUT, of course, the peoples living in China mixed with invaders from the north, and it is these people primarily that link the Southern Chinese and the Vietnamese. Vietnamese genetically lie somewhere between Khmer and Southern Chinese...I would venture to say, purely from having travelled across the country and observing countless people in Saigon, Nha Trang, Hoi An, Hue, Hanoi, that Khmer admixture gradually increases as one heads south. The Vietnamese invaded the Khmer lands of southern VN and hence that is why some in the South look so Khmer. Original Viets were very distinct from Khmer, and Vietnamese and Khmer language aren't that close, even my Vietnamese friend says so.
So Vietnamese is definitely the mixed nationality. But yet you still try to say that they are pure in many of your post.
Also you don't even answer this reply of mine...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio_Auditore
Thai is mixed of Dai/Chinese/Khmer/Malay, Vietnamese is mixed of Kinh(Mon-Khmer)/Chinese/Khmer/Cham(Malay related). So both nationality are mixed.
But the funny thing you are doing is you alway trying to giving exception that Vietnamese aren't mixed. but pointing out that Thai are mixed.
What you saying isn't logical at all becasue based on source of information Dai/Tai ethnic ethnic make up 75-85% of Thailand population and Kinh ethnic are make up 86% of Vietnam total population. I don't think the 1-10% differences between purity of race isn't going to make any signefican different about who is more pure.
The group that moved from S.China into Tonkin Delta obviously not the same group of Vietnamese that currently live in Red River Delta at first place. If they were the same group then Vietnamese would be speak some kind of Sino-tibetan language instead of Mon-Khmer language alredy. Because as we all know that ethnics in S.China are either Sino-tibetan or Tai-Kadai and almost none of Mon-khmer
Also the S.Chinese group that moved into Tonkin Delta doesn't seem to be big group either. Becasue if they were bigger population than the original Mon-Khmer Vietnamese that have been living over there at first place, the society itself would alredy forced everyone to speak the language that most people speak. Which mean the oriignal Mon-Khmer Vietnamese those living in Red River Delta at first place were outnumber the S.Chinese group who move to Tonkin Delta.
Language doesn't always conform to genetic groupings of people, surely you know that. Hungarians don't speak an IE language yet Poles do. Sinhalese in Sri Lanka speak an Indo-European language. According to your logic Sri Lankans are more genetically related to Czechs than Hungarians are!
We're talking thousands of years ago, remember. Back then there were a variety of language families in S.China. Austro-asiatic (still found in Yunnan, Guangxi.etc), Sino-Tibetan, Hmong-Mien, Tai-Kadai. Those that came probably brought the more Austro-asiatic type language.
So Vietnamese is definitely the mixed nationality. But yet you still try to say that they are pure in many of your post.
Also you don't even answer this reply of mine...
When did I say they were 'pure'? What does 'pure' even mean? No one is pure, differences are a matter of degrees. Yes, the Vietnamese are a mix of different influences, as are the Chinese, as are the Thai, Mongolians, Koreans, Japanese, Khmer.etc. There is some clustering though which makes them all look broadly Asian. The Mongoloids, Caucasoids, Australoids all blend into each other/gradually transition, and then you have sub-types of Mongoloids like South Sinid, North Sinid, Tungid.etc.
Oh I see the wikipedia article about the out of Indonesia theory...that occurred a long long time ago, well before any Viet civilisation...the wiki article says '600,000 to 12,000 years ago'...i thought the most popular theory is that we all came out of Africa 100,000 or so years ago. Then there was a split between those that became Caucasians, and Mongoloid-Australoid. The ones that came via Indonesia were likely Australoid types, sort of Veddoid, dark skin, curly hair, nothing like current Viets, if you have eyes it should be obvious. But these ppl, we can't be sure how they looked, but certainly since then Vietnam has been far more influenced by more northerly genetics. Once can tell at a glance. And if we're talking tens of thousands of years ago it's likely the ancestors of who would become to Chinese.etc also came via SEA, although it's equally likely they came via Central Asia. I think 12,000 years ago a lot of the ancestors of the Chinese came from Central Asia and Russia, the more northerly Mongoloid type of the original Chinese. The early people that resembled Australian aborigines might have left little more than a tiny mark in Vietnamese genetics, like negritos are marginal in SEA where they used to dominate. In terms of how ppl looked, 20,000 years ago most of SEA was dominated by dark-skinned, short, curly hair negrito types...most SEA's today are from the north, Thai, Viet, Malay, Javanese...
I don't think that 20.000 years ago the SEA and Souther Chinese was dark-skinned, because then climate was more cold than nowaday very much. That was the fourth ice age, Tonkin bay was land because two polar had thick ice. Human couldn't move to the North Asian. I think SEA people are light-skinned and tend to be darker after that .
I don't think that 20.000 years ago the SEA and Souther Chinese was dark-skinned, because then climate was more cold than nowaday very much. That was the fourth ice age, Tonkin bay was land because two polar had thick ice. Human couldn't move to the North Asian. I think SEA people are light-skinned and tend to be darker after that .
Well it's commonly believed the negritos and Australoids were the first inhabitants of most of South East Asia. They are extinct in Indochina I believe, with only a few thousand in Malaysia, Indonesia (Orang Asli), Philippines, and the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.
When I haven't yet come to Thailand , I thought that majority Thai be dark unless Thai Chinese, because I saw some Thai tourist or footballer of team national Thai on TV with skin dark. When I had been Thailand I suprise there are much light skin people there. The biggest suprise is pure Thai very similar pure Viet, they are different from Han Chinese living at Chinatown in Hochiminh City. I believe that Viet and Thai are descendant of Bach Viet (Baiyue) ancient.
Last edited by cholonman; 08-24-2013 at 03:36 AM..
When I haven't yet come to Thailand , I thought that majority Thai be dark unless Thai Chinese, because I saw some Thai tourist or footballer of team national Thai on TV with skin dark. When I had been Thailand I suprise there are much light skin people there. The biggest suprise is pure Thai very similar pure Viet, they are different from Han Chinese living at Chinatown in Hochiminh City. I believe that Viet and Thai are descendant of Bach Viet (Baiyue) ancient.
Yes the Dai might be similar to the Viets because a lot of Viets did come from Southern Chinese. The Southern Han are a mix of these peoples and those who conquered them.
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