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That first pic of the 'Hanoi Vietnamese' children is in fact from the Mekong Delta - a famous tourist site, which I can back up with the bridge in the background. The Mekong Delta was incorporated into Vietnamese territory extremely recently - within the last 100-200 years. Meaning that is an area that hasn't been fully assimilated by the Vietnamese and people of Khmer origin are still obvious. The Vietnamese generally do not 'inter-mingle' with the Khmer; meaning that they are almost completely segregated. Probably due to racial and cultural differences which is clearly obvious in the more Sinitic Vietnamese as opposed to the Indianised Khmer.
As you have mentioned a countless number of times, and I would like to take this moment to appreciate your continuing "perseverance", that there is no evidence of Vietnamese coming from the North - I'd like to go against your point.
In Vietnamese tales, which have been passed down generation to generation, it is said that the Shang or Yin (or 'An' as referred to in Vietnamese) invaded the Ancient Vietnamese many times but the Vietnamese stood bold and withstood. The Shang, also known as Yin/An, began around Central (maybe N.Central?) China - why would a civilisation invade a country that far away? Therefore we could say the Ancient Vietnamese bordered the Shang Dynasty and were probably located around what is now known as Southern China.
Another theory is that the people that inhabited Vietnam 2500 years ago were indeed very different from the modern Vietnamese. "The Vietnamese are very closely related to the Southern Chinese. A huge wave of Southern Chinese poured into Vietnam 2,200 years and bred in with existing people. This group came from the Taiwan Strait – the area north of Vietnam along the coast." Through this quote we could say that the Southern Chinese, both Han and minorities, traveled to Vietnam and displaced the people from the Taiwan Strait, which were also of an older Chinese origin. Hence the reason why Vietnamese today resemble their Southern Chinese Han/minority conterparts. One must also exclude the Southern Vietnamese minorities as they are only a result of incorporating new lands from invasion and the recent French colonisation - and are also segregated from the general Vietnamese population.
The original Thai are indeed of Dai origin (not Chinese, because this is only possible through intermarriage). However due to the fact that much of Thailand's territory was historically Khmer and Malay, the vast majority of people now make a new sub-group called the Thai-Malay or Thai-Khmer, even if they do not recognise themselves as so. They constitute more than 30-50% of Thailand's population - making it a majority. Therefore we can say that although past Thai were indeed closely related to S.Chinese minorities; the Modern Thai are however somewhat different representing more of a fusion between Dai, Khmer and Malay. This is not to say that the Thai are not of S.Chinese (excluding Han) origin but today they are a mix, therefore changing the overall identity and look of the Thai.
The Vietnamese however were able displace the Mon-Khmer people (ie Khmer), unlike the Thai, who escaped en masse west. Therefore allowing the newer Vietnamese to move into their new territory whilst evolving a new identity through Chinese influence. The Chinese in Vietnam become very integrated and recognise themselves as Vietnamese in documents rather than Chinese - which is why Vietnam has a population of only 1million Chinese. Therefore the number of Vietnamese-Chinese could be extremely high (some ethnologist even suggest a number as high as 50-70%) and the Vietnamese are genetically closely related to the Zhuang (they share a common myth) - the Muong are also related to the Dai/Zhuang. The Chinese-Vietnamese group in Vietnam is generally considered integrated unlike the Thai-Chinese who usually recognise themselves as "Chinese". Therefore in this context we could say the more Chinese the less integrated or the less Chinese the more integrated - therefore we cannot truly know how many Vietnamese are of 'Han Chinese' origin. We can say by default that the Vietnamese are most definitely related to South Chinese ethnic minorities through genetic papers, which would be 'handy evidence/proof, and by looking at the Muong http://robertlindsay.files.wordpress...3/05/muong.jpg (photo of common Muong people)
"A 2001 HLA study headed by laboratories at the Mackay Memorial Hospital in Taipei (Taiwan) classifies the Vietnamese people in the same genetic cluster as the Miao/Hmong, Southern Han (Southern Chinese), Buyei and Thai, with a divergent family consisting of Thai Chinese, Singapore Chinese, Minnan/Hoklo and Hakka." The divergent family (divergent; meaning basically 'continuously adding on' or a sub-grouping; basically representing a fusion) that the Vietnamese are genetically like the Thai Chinese, Singapore Chinese and other Min peoples. Singularly some Vietnamese show a genetic relationship with Miao/Hmong, Buyei and Thai, which basically means that these are the most common genetic affiliations.
Therefore by generic default we can say that the Vietnamese are closer to the Northern phenotype of Asians than that of the modern Thai.
True, there are good number of Han-Chinese mixing with original or native Vietnamese whom were similar to Cambodian during the 1000 years occupation. The result of that is basically make original Vietnamese whom are actually Vietnamese can't no longer be found much in Northern Vietnam, but there should be a good number of them in S.Vietnam which look similar to Cambodian.
I have no idea about tales, but I don't think it is something that could be use to identify if two people are related or not. Tales are basically bedtime stories that can easily pass to one another even for people that do business to each other. So the idea you were saying that original Vietnamese are related to Dai/Zhuang (whom is based ethnic of the Thai) because of sharing tales together is quite nonsense.
By the way, it said that Thailand has the largest number of oversea Han-Chinese in the world. Based on the data, pure Han-Chinese make up a 14% of Thailand total population but also account for another 40% of those people with mixed ancestor and have Chinese in bloodline. So total would be around 54% of people in Thailand that have Chinese blood. Another thing is, the part you said that Chinese in Thailand took Chinese identity isn't true at all when I went to Thailand. Majority of people in Center Thailand are well know to be Chinese ethnic but yet they can't speak Chinese or claim themselves to be Chinese, they also don't use Chinese last name. Thai Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anyway, I think majority of Thailand population are mostly still make up by gene pool of Dai/Zhuang ethnic and not Han-Chinese or Khmer.
To me the Thai that represent Thailand are Dai/Zhuang-Thai and not Chinese-Thai or Khmer-Thai.
^ good points. Thais without Chinese blood (Dai or later Chinese migration) have more 'native' blood and look less Sinitic than the Viets. Plus you forgot to mention that it was infact the Chinese who settled parts of the Mekong delta before the Viet Kinh. Many intermarried with Khmers, so there are many people in the delta who are of mixed Sino-Khmer ancestry. But yes, the Vietnamese in general look more 'Northeast Asian' than most non-Chinese Thai.
Dai(Thai)/Zhuang are different people from Han-Chinese just like Manchurian are different people from Han-Chinese. Do not ramp up them together, keep that in mind.
Another thing is it isn't like that original Vietnamese of Vietnam(whom believe were close to Cambodian/Mon-Khmer group) before get invade and mixed by Han-Chinese were look more "Sinitic" than any other of Mon-Khmer group whom were populated in Thailand before Dai(Thai)/Zhuang and later Han-Chinese come to Thailand and replace them.
It obviously that before Han-Chinese come to populate and mix with original Mon-khmer in Vietnam because of occupation OR before Dai(Thai)/Zhuang/Han-Chinese come to populate and mix with Mon-Khmer people in Thailand because of Mongolian invasion in China which forced them to find a new home. The area of mainland Southeast Asian were full of nothing but Mon-Khmer looking people doesn't matter it was Vietnam or Thailand.
So neither of people in Vietnam or Thailand look more East Asian than one another on that time before people with more Northern East Asian origin such as Dai(Thai)/Zhuang/Han-Chinese for Thailand or Han-Chinese for Vietnam move in and replace Mon-khmer aboriginal whom ruled the area of all mainland Southeast Asian included Vietnam and Thailand on that time.
i am thai. Thais have 2 races: light skin and black skin. Thailand have super light skinned people whose ancestry are from white Tai/Dai Race of Altai Mountains above China, and the white mon-khmer race from the high lands above china, not chinese blood, and this group of people are just minority and have a certain east asian look almost like chinese, manchoo, mongol or even korean. The significant blood of our thai kings are white mon-khmer genetics plus genetics of Tai/Dai Race of Altai Mountains. our thai kings have not dated any chiese blood people for almost 1,000 year. These two white genetics (white Tai/Dai and whtie mon-khmer) have whitened the original negro race in the southeast asia for thousand years to the extent that the negro aborigines turn red dark, dark brown, so every dark skinned thai of today has these white genetics, more or less. Chinese are just recent immigrants and darker and short, and with just chinese blood, people cannot have any light skin. people in today's thailand have been whitened for long before chinese immigrants came to thailand. Thai chinese are generally dark, not light skinned because chinese men married black women without white ancestry, and thai chinese who have light skin are also descendants of white rai race and white mon-khmer.
It is wrong belief that a thai who has chinese blood has light skin. a lot of my friends who have chinese blood are dark skinned because their ancestry have no white blood from dai race or whtie mo-khmer. and a lot of my friends at the number 1 high school of the country and the most famous university have lighter skin than chinese people.
The most intelligient people have no chinese blood but decendants of white mon-khmer and white dai race, not chinese as you generally misunderstand. a lot of chinese familie
Thai people are generally taller than chinese because of their black ancestry. chinese blood makes thai shorter.
Southeast Asia (thailand, loas, shan in burma, cambodia) is a land of black or negro race ruled by the white race from the north. dark thai are thaitifed by white thai kings. For example, the south of thailand (15 provinces) was conquerred by our white thai king 300 years ago so super dark people in the south are not real thai, but just thaitified people of black skin. the northeast part of thailand was conquerred from our white dai race ancestor, and our thai king Rama 5 wants to distinguish himself fom the large amount of people in the northeast part of thailand and identify those people as "Isaan People", as distinct from the ruling thai people. So a lot of foreigners and even uneducated chinese families have a wrong belief that thais are dark because the dark people are the majority. in fact, thais are the light skinned race from dai race and whtie mon-khmer as you can see that our thai kings have very light skin, not dark. and prostitutes in pattaya are black race, not at all girls with the same blood as that of our thai kings, and they are thaitified race from the noreast part, the north part and the south. Real thai women of white thai blood are queens, royal class people and do not need to work as bar girls or prostitutes because they are born daugthers of land lords.
Today's thailand is a land under the rule of three ancient empires: the white mon-led empire, the white khmer-led empire and the white dai race-led empire. so people in thailand of all skins have 3 cultures: mon culture, khmer culture and dai culture. sometimes, we act as a mon, sometimes we act as a khmer and sometimes we act as if they are white. The dai cutlure is an east asian culture. As dai race once lived with mongol and manchoo people, so their certain culutre is similar to that of mongol and manchoo people. For example, we have a head shaving culture like that of manchoo people. our holy dress of thai kings are a winter long robe with a high hat that is very similar to the culture of mongol people. This is while chinese people are just immigrants and never rule black people and are finally thaitified. but white Dai/Tai Race and the white mon-khmer people once ruled as all in the southeast asia.
True, there are good number of Han-Chinese mixing with original or native Vietnamese whom were similar to Cambodian during the 1000 years occupation. The result of that is basically make original Vietnamese whom are actually Vietnamese can't no longer be found much in Northern Vietnam, but there should be a good number of them in S.Vietnam which look similar to Cambodian.
I have no idea about tales, but I don't think it is something that could be use to identify if two people are related or not. Tales are basically bedtime stories that can easily pass to one another even for people that do business to each other. So the idea you were saying that original Vietnamese are related to Dai/Zhuang (whom is based ethnic of the Thai) because of sharing tales together is quite nonsense.
By the way, it said that Thailand has the largest number of oversea Han-Chinese in the world. Based on the data, pure Han-Chinese make up a 14% of Thailand total population but also account for another 40% of those people with mixed ancestor and have Chinese in bloodline. So total would be around 54% of people in Thailand that have Chinese blood. Another thing is, the part you said that Chinese in Thailand took Chinese identity isn't true at all when I went to Thailand. Majority of people in Center Thailand are well know to be Chinese ethnic but yet they can't speak Chinese or claim themselves to be Chinese, they also don't use Chinese last name. Thai Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anyway, I think majority of Thailand population are mostly still make up by gene pool of Dai/Zhuang ethnic and not Han-Chinese or Khmer.
To me the Thai that represent Thailand are Dai/Zhuang-Thai and not Chinese-Thai or Khmer-Thai.
han chinese are just recent immigrants and they are thaitified, too. they have lost their language because they were forced by our thai army to stop speaking chinese. People with han chinese blood are generally dark, not light skinned because han chinese men who are generally short married black women without original white ancestries of the Dai/Tai Race of Altai Mountains or the white Mon Khmer. Han chinese are not any great but just immigrants who must learn to speak thai. This is while Dai/Tai Race and the white mon-khmer colonized the negro aborigine race in today's thailand and mixed with these negro aborigine race until we have dark brown, red dark skinned people. We sill have very super light skinned people in the north who are descendants of Dai/Tai Race of Altai Mountains but they are jsut a minority and never marry any han chinese man. OUr thai kings are descendants of white mon and white dai race, not any chinese blood. because they never marry any chinese for 250 years. Thai chinese are not light skinned, but most of them are dark. chinese familities are not any great in brain because a lot of them fail to win seats in thai number 1 university. white lgiht skinned thai students with whtie blood from dai race and white mon-khmer are the nation's real number 1 students and their face always turn pink or a little bit red when their skin is exposed to strong sunshine. thai female doctors have super light skin without any han chinese blood.
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