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Old 03-16-2013, 11:51 PM
 
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As the name of the topic said. I am wondering about origin of both race. Where are both of them originated? Who is closer to Northeast Asian?

 
Old 03-16-2013, 11:56 PM
 
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Historically, the original Viet/Kinh before been rules by Han-Chinese were considered as Austro-Asiatic which is the same group as Mon-khmer. I red that they originated in Southeas Asia around Red River Delta. The thing that make Viet/Kinh a little bit diffrent from other Mon-Khmer ethnics is they have been rule by Han-Chinese for like 1000 years, So that will explains why they looks diffrent from other Austro-Asiatic (Mon-khmer) ethnics and with heavily influenced of Han-Chinese culture.

By the way the Thai/Dai are originated in South of China and considered as Tai-Kadai ethnic, but move down to Southeast Asia in 13th century. Also the original Tai/Dai genetic are also closely related with in Zhuang/Cantonese in China. Tai/Dai never be invade and rule by Han-Chinese just like Hmong and Zhuang, so culturally their culture aren't close to Han-Chinese culture. By the way genetically they seem to be obviously related to Northeast Asian not any less than Vietnamese. Also Thailand is currently world's bigest Han-Chinese Comunity outside of China, there are 9.5 millions of pure 100% Han-Chinese. Also estimated over 50% of total population are Han-Chinese hybird (30million are Thai-Chinese). So genetically I think Thai are more related to Chinese than Vietnamese .

By the way culturally Vietnamese is obviously more related to Han-Chinese than Thai, but not genetically.
Genetically and culturally is diffrent story and have to be divide apart.

Tai-kadai people were weak and lake in culture, so in the time they move down to Southeast Asia and war with native people of Indo-Chia which is Khmer. Tai-kadai seem to be absorbed into Khmer culture because Khmer civilization on that time were considered as powerful and rich in culture. So this would explains why modern day Thai/Dai in Thailand and Laos are influenced by Khmer culturally.

This is really same case as how Mongolian conquered China but on that time the Mongolian were weak and lake in culture, by the way Han-Chinese were powerful and rich in culture. So those Mongolian obviously absorbed into Han-Chinese culture.
 
Old 03-17-2013, 12:20 AM
 
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This is more like to ask "Japanese or Korean which one has more Asian phenotype?"
 
Old 03-17-2013, 12:55 AM
 
84 posts, read 367,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio_Auditore View Post
Historically, the original Viet/Kinh before been rules by Han-Chinese were considered as Austro-Asiatic which is the same group as Mon-khmer. I red that they originated in Southeas Asia around Red River Delta. The thing that make Viet/Kinh a little bit diffrent from other Mon-Khmer ethnics is they have been rule by Han-Chinese for like 1000 years, So that will explains why they looks diffrent from other Austro-Asiatic (Mon-khmer) ethnics and with heavily influenced of Han-Chinese culture.

By the way the Thai/Dai are originated in South of China and considered as Tai-Kadai ethnic, but move down to Southeast Asia in 13th century. Also the original Tai/Dai genetic are also closely related with in Zhuang/Cantonese in China. Tai/Dai never be invade and rule by Han-Chinese just like Hmong and Zhuang, so culturally their culture aren't close to Han-Chinese culture. By the way genetically they seem to be obviously related to Northeast Asian not any less than Vietnamese. Also Thailand is currently world's bigest Han-Chinese Comunity outside of China, there are 9.5 millions of pure 100% Han-Chinese. Also estimated over 50% of total population are Han-Chinese hybird (30million are Thai-Chinese). So genetically I think Thai are more related to Chinese than Vietnamese .

By the way culturally Vietnamese is obviously more related to Han-Chinese than Thai, but not genetically.
Genetically and culturally is diffrent story and have to be divide apart.

Tai-kadai people were weak and lake in culture, so in the time they move down to Southeast Asia and war with native people of Indo-Chia which is Khmer. Tai-kadai seem to be absorbed into Khmer culture because Khmer civilization on that time were considered as powerful and rich in culture. So this would explains why modern day Thai/Dai in Thailand and Laos are influenced by Khmer culturally.

This is really same case as how Mongolian conquered China but on that time the Mongolian were weak and lake in culture, by the way Han-Chinese were powerful and rich in culture. So those Mongolian obviously absorbed into Han-Chinese culture.
I see, so if the Thai/Dai originated in S.China but Vietnamese/Kinh are originated in Southeast Asia. So Thai would be more Northeast Asian than Vietnamese physically?
 
Old 03-17-2013, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Waipahu
58 posts, read 111,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio_Auditore View Post
Historically, the original Viet/Kinh before been rules by Han-Chinese were considered as Austro-Asiatic which is the same group as Mon-khmer. I red that they originated in Southeas Asia around Red River Delta. The thing that make Viet/Kinh a little bit diffrent from other Mon-Khmer ethnics is they have been rule by Han-Chinese for like 1000 years, So that will explains why they looks diffrent from other Austro-Asiatic (Mon-khmer) ethnics and with heavily influenced of Han-Chinese culture.

By the way the Thai/Dai are originated in South of China and considered as Tai-Kadai ethnic, but move down to Southeast Asia in 13th century. Also the original Tai/Dai genetic are also closely related with in Zhuang/Cantonese in China. Tai/Dai never be invade and rule by Han-Chinese just like Hmong and Zhuang, so culturally their culture aren't close to Han-Chinese culture. By the way genetically they seem to be obviously related to Northeast Asian not any less than Vietnamese. Also Thailand is currently world's bigest Han-Chinese Comunity outside of China, there are 9.5 millions of pure 100% Han-Chinese. Also estimated over 50% of total population are Han-Chinese hybird (30million are Thai-Chinese). So genetically I think Thai are more related to Chinese than Vietnamese .

By the way culturally Vietnamese is obviously more related to Han-Chinese than Thai, but not genetically.
Genetically and culturally is diffrent story and have to be divide apart.

Tai-kadai people were weak and lake in culture, so in the time they move down to Southeast Asia and war with native people of Indo-Chia which is Khmer. Tai-kadai seem to be absorbed into Khmer culture because Khmer civilization on that time were considered as powerful and rich in culture. So this would explains why modern day Thai/Dai in Thailand and Laos are influenced by Khmer culturally.

This is really same case as how Mongolian conquered China but on that time the Mongolian were weak and lake in culture, by the way Han-Chinese were powerful and rich in culture. So those Mongolian obviously absorbed into Han-Chinese culture.
This is the best description I have found on this forum so far.
 
Old 03-17-2013, 08:54 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,687 posts, read 70,554,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Great_Jack View Post
As the name of the topic said. I am wondering about origin of both race. Where are both of them originated? Who is closer to Northeast Asian?
Some geneticists are saying the Thai/Dai are related to the Tibetans and Mongols. But this isn't a universally-accepted theory. There seem to be some linguistic affinities, too. But all this is still being worked out. Who, exactly, the Tibetans are is a complex matter itself.
 
Old 03-18-2013, 07:28 AM
 
4 posts, read 25,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio_Auditore View Post
Historically, the original Viet/Kinh before been rules by Han-Chinese were considered as Austro-Asiatic which is the same group as Mon-khmer. I red that they originated in Southeas Asia around Red River Delta.
Viet-Muong greatest linguistic diversity is between souther Lao (Khammuan) and Vietnamese border. In theory this area is close to the original Viet-Muong home. Red river delta to Pearl river delta is theorized to be the Tai-Kadai home land. Tai-Kadai greatest diversity is in this region therefore more than likely they originated here.


Quote:
By the way the Thai/Dai are originated in South of China and considered as Tai-Kadai ethnic, but move down to Southeast Asia in 13th century. Also the original Tai/Dai genetic are also closely related with in Zhuang/Cantonese in China.
I'm confused. Tai/Dai ethnic? Dai is Dai ethnic group and Tai is a language family Dai is classified under which includes Thai, Lao, etc.

Tai people are all closely related linguistically and genetically. Not surprising they are closely related to Zhuang. The Zhuang minority are the Tai's that stayed home therefore they can be considered as the heardstream. Furthermore, Tai is not closely related to Cantonese genetically. Cantonese ancestors were northern Chinese conquerors who later become the Tai's overlords. These ancient Chinese raped and married local Tai women. If there is any genetics relations to Cantonese this would likely be the reason.


Quote:
Tai/Dai never be invade and rule by Han-Chinese just like Hmong and Zhuang, so culturally their culture aren't close to Han-Chinese culture. By the way genetically they seem to be obviously related to Northeast Asian not any less than Vietnamese. Also Thailand is currently world's bigest Han-Chinese Comunity outside of China, there are 9.5 millions of pure 100% Han-Chinese. Also estimated over 50% of total population are Han-Chinese hybird (30million are Thai-Chinese). So genetically I think Thai are more related to Chinese than Vietnamese .
Again, you're lumping Tai the linguistic family (all Tai ethnics) and Dai the ethnic group from southern Yunnan creating much confusion. Tai-Kadai history is very complicating I'll try to elaborate on this subject.
Tai speaking people were heavily under Chinese domination and rule. Tai language is very similar to old Chinese especially Pinghua dialect. It is Pinhua dialect that heavily influenced Tai language of today. Living under Chinese rule greatly mutated and morphed Tai language to what it is today. Semi-sinized from early contact. Vietnamese was semi-sinized from much later contact with Chinese. Southern Chinese are theorized to having dual origin, Nothern Han (their ancestors), and southern Bai-Yue (Tai-Kadai). Fujian, Zhejiang, Guangdong, Guangxi, and parts of Northern Vietnam were Tai-Kadai speaking in ancient time.

Ancient Tai were theorized to have practice Mo a local anamist belief and an ancient form of Tao Te Ching. Tao Te Ching vocabularies can be found in all Tai-Kadai languages. Central and Northern Tai (Zhuang et al) still practice Tao Te Ching and Mo. The Hiit Khoong codes of the Lao show similarities to Tao Te Ching.

Link: TAOIST INFLUENCE IN TAI LANGUAGES AND CULTURES http://pacling.anu.edu.au/series/SEA...SEALS-14-1.pdf

Hmong people have even less Chinese influence on their culture and language than Tai. Hmong resisted all shape and form of Chinese influence.


Quote:
By the way culturally Vietnamese is obviously more related to Han-Chinese than Thai, but not genetically.
Genetically and culturally is diffrent story and have to be divide apart.

Tai-kadai people were weak and lake in culture, so in the time they move down to Southeast Asia and war with native people of Indo-Chia which is Khmer. Tai-kadai seem to be absorbed into Khmer culture because Khmer civilization on that time were considered as powerful and rich in culture. So this would explains why modern day Thai/Dai in Thailand and Laos are influenced by Khmer culturally.
Southwest Tai came in to contact with many local tribes of southeast Asia. They first came in to contact with Khmu and Palungic speaking AustroAsiatics. Khmer contact came much later as they penetrated further southwards. Shan and Dai came in contact with Tibetan-Burman and Austroasiatic tribes.

Last edited by furbygrl; 03-18-2013 at 07:50 AM..
 
Old 03-21-2013, 05:31 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,384,878 times
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Both the Thai and the Vietnamese people have their origin in what is now China, although I think the Vietnamese people largely moved from their probable homeland around Guangxi province over 2,500 years ago, although they seem genetically quite similar to the people living in Southern China right now. Both are probably a mix of Northeast Asians and the 'natives' of Southern China prior to the Chinese expansion. The Dai ethnic group actually cannot be equated with the Thais, who are a diverse group with many origins. Many now believe that as is often the case, many Thai have roots going back long before the Dai migration of the 12-13th centuries AD, which is why they look more SE Asian than the Dai ethnic group, who look more like their neighbouring Han.
 
Old 03-21-2013, 02:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Both the Thai and the Vietnamese people have their origin in what is now China, although I think the Vietnamese people largely moved from their probable homeland around Guangxi province over 2,500 years ago, although they seem genetically quite similar to the people living in Southern China right now. Both are probably a mix of Northeast Asians and the 'natives' of Southern China prior to the Chinese expansion. The Dai ethnic group actually cannot be equated with the Thais, who are a diverse group with many origins. Many now believe that as is often the case, many Thai have roots going back long before the Dai migration of the 12-13th centuries AD, which is why they look more SE Asian than the Dai ethnic group, who look more like their neighbouring Han.

Genetically southern chinese and southern east asians are all similar.

Viet-Muong the linguistic group Vietnamese is classified under is thought to have originated around southern Laos and Vietnam border area. Here you find the highest linguistic diversity among the Viet-Muong group. This hypothesis is accepted by academia. In fact Vietnamese migration can be said to be a southern to northern migration based on linguistic evidence.

Guangxi both eastern and western are Zhuang domains. There are no documented records or evidence of Vietnamese ever being in Guangxi prior to the recent migration of Kinh minorties in southern Guangxi Vietnam border.
 
Old 03-21-2013, 07:24 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,384,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by furbygrl View Post
Genetically southern chinese and southern east asians are all similar.

Viet-Muong the linguistic group Vietnamese is classified under is thought to have originated around southern Laos and Vietnam border area. Here you find the highest linguistic diversity among the Viet-Muong group. This hypothesis is accepted by academia. In fact Vietnamese migration can be said to be a southern to northern migration based on linguistic evidence.

Guangxi both eastern and western are Zhuang domains. There are no documented records or evidence of Vietnamese ever being in Guangxi prior to the recent migration of Kinh minorties in southern Guangxi Vietnam border.
The spread of genes don't often correspond to languages. The Vietnamese clearly have a more northerly origin, as can be seen from their features. Most South-East Asians today come from China (although if you go back further there was probably a south to north migration). Maybe at that time they were not known as Vietnamese, but a lot of the people who inhabited the area eventually became the Vietnamese.
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