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Old 07-17-2013, 07:42 AM
 
649 posts, read 982,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Different countries have different ways to count GDP.
I have been to Cairo and it's 20 years behind any major city in China.
Egypt has almost the same GDP per capita as China though.
China will probably never be able to have a "good" GDP per capita ever, even after its total GDP catches up with the USA for the sheer number of its population. A good deal of the Chinese population is still vested in farming, imperative for producing enough grains and livestock to feed its vast population. China is one of the world's top agricultural producer by volume but nowhere in the list of agricultural exporters while United States is the world's top agricultural exporter. We grow so much with our land we have more than enough to sell it to the world.

GDP per capita has many flaws in determining actual wealth of individual as well as for society because it overwhelmingly favors MICROstates like Singapore, Monaco and Luxembourg. MICROstates population can focus on high yield economic services and have practically no other types of industries. This is why all MICROstates also function as tax havens and banking havens for the rich globally to stash their money and for money laundering.
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Old 07-17-2013, 07:57 AM
 
649 posts, read 982,796 times
Reputation: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
Singapore is clearly first world, any other view is just silly or based on some ulterior motive/axe to grind. If you think over-priced tiny apartments, stinky streets, outdoor food vendors and overcrowded dirty public transportation make a 3rd world country, please don't come visit us in New York City!
I've been to NYC many times. To compare NYC and Singapore is sort of like comparing a Ferrari and a rickshaw.

Singapore basically has no hinterland. Period. That's why its GDP per capita looks good compared to any big country. Despite that its GDP per capita is still below the USA with a vast population and varied industries. Comparing Singapore's GDP to cities alone in the USA should do the trick and shatter any illusions. Its GDP cannot even rival a city like Boston, NYC completely obliterates it. Taking both Boston and NYC metro area population, you'll see Singapore GDP per capita looks like ****. This is because of a lack of innovation and poor productivity in Singapore workforce, a fact that is well publicized in Singapore and openly confessed to by its politicians. Google it yourself. It has been using the trite formula of acting as a tax haven and a huge majority of its GDP comes from financial, legal, and other corporate services by inviting multinational foreign companies to go there and set up a southeast Asian office. It has no homegrown company that is international, few that are regional and few homegrown companies to begin with. People there do not start their own businesses. Most of them are salaried workhorses, much unlike other Asian countries like Japan, Taiwan and South Korea.

Have you been to Singapore and dealt with its retail sales and food and beverage staff? If you have, and I'm sure you have, and if you've lived in any American city, you'd know what I'm talking about.

Innovation and productivity are both huge problems.

The people in Singapore are mostly deep in delusions because of a lack of world exposure and effective government propaganda which has told them over decades funny stories about how they are comparable to first tier alpha cities and by drumming up the GDP per capita (of a city state half the size of London with no freaking hinterland LOL) to a bunch of people most of whom have no idea about the basics of economics 101.

For ya reading pleasure.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...ty/691726.html

http://www.spring.gov.sg/NewsEvents/...challenge.aspx

http://www.zdnet.com/topic-intellige...or-7000011774/

Comparing the GDP per capita of Singapore with whole large countries with agricultural and varied industries like Japan, USA, France, Germany is a joke. The GDP per capita of Singapore cannot beat individual American cities by a very big margin. It's not on par with Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, LA, Houston, etc, any major American city. That's because it suffers from chronic innovation problems and low productivity, unskilled work force, especially compared to the US and Germany.

Last edited by sadgirl80; 07-17-2013 at 09:04 AM..
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Old 07-17-2013, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,439 posts, read 11,941,006 times
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The question is not so much if Singapore has a similar standard of living to the U.S. (although on all the rankings I have seen it edges out the U.S. now), but if it has a similar standard of living to other first-world countries, which is typically thought to include virtually all of Western Europe. Places like Portugal have a per-capita income of around $20,000, and are still widely considered to be First World/Developed.

Basically, with the standard you are setting, nowhere but the U.S. would be first world. Which is ridiculous, and means there's no real point in having the term at all.
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Old 07-17-2013, 08:41 AM
 
649 posts, read 982,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
The question is not so much if Singapore has a similar standard of living to the U.S. (although on all the rankings I have seen it edges out the U.S. now), but if it has a similar standard of living to other first-world countries, which is typically thought to include virtually all of Western Europe. Places like Portugal have a per-capita income of around $20,000, and are still widely considered to be First World/Developed.

Basically, with the standard you are setting, nowhere but the U.S. would be first world. Which is ridiculous, and means there's no real point in having the term at all.
I believe in the latest one it's fallen behind. I've made it clear why its GDP per capita looks good. If the productivity is so bad compared to USA, Sweden, Norway, how do you think it managed to have a "good" GDP per capita? Compare individual cities (of GDP per capita,sure why not?) and you will know why.

I'm offering you a contrarian view to think about. There are many complaints about productivity in singapore, not just by its politicians but also by its residents.Singapore needs to boost productivity, not population
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Old 07-17-2013, 08:50 AM
 
649 posts, read 982,796 times
Reputation: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momotaro View Post
Your dad being from a country does not make you an expert. Singapore is very first world.
It sure doesn't, what it gives me in an inside view of "life" of people who were born and raised there and not faceless GDP figures or what you see as a western expat flush with cash or sponsored by your corporation to "live" there temporarily having the time of your life, living the high life, having fun in marina bay. Even tourists can have an awesome time in Mumbai with tons of money to burn. You don't see the real life and suffering of the people stuck there with no other citizenship to fall back on.

Have a look at this video
Gary & Kenneth - 15 years on Vimeo
The point isn't about the gay couple fighting for their rights to have oral sex without being prosecuted. Take a look at the apartment and gate of one of the gay guys in the video (not the richer guy who lives in his parents' house with a car parked in the parking lot). This is the living conditions and housing of 90% of its native born population, who live in public housing projects. This is the real singapore life. You would have the privilege of having it if you're "really" from there and only has its citizenship. NYC? NOT.

This is a good list. Developed country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia it's not included as a developed country by OECD. It makes some lists, it doesn't make it in others. I won't challenge the fact that its done a good job of convincing people it's a developed country. I challenge the claim that its a bona fide, iron clad developed country, which would make ALL lists and seems to be the general tenor here. Japan for example, stands up to this claim. Sing is a borderline case. To say questioning it is like saying Bill Gates isn't rich, I don't think so.

Last edited by sadgirl80; 07-17-2013 at 09:33 AM..
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Old 07-17-2013, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
10,426 posts, read 12,430,967 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StabbyAbby View Post
What's your opinion on Armenia and Georgia? I don't see them on any of the lists.
They are not part of Asia imo.
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Old 07-17-2013, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Bothell, Washington
2,703 posts, read 4,674,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momotaro View Post
I wondered that myself.

I rather break China down to regions than the country as a whole. A good chunk as you know can be considered first world.
Not really- I think with China you can break it down between "2nd world" and "3rd world"- with the big cities along the coast being 2nd world and the poor countryside being 3rd world. The big cities may have parts that fool you into thinking they are fully developed, but when you go there and see the way things are on the street- the way everything looks, the way people live, you realize it is still far from "developed". A few gleaming skyscrapers and shopping malls can't mask the fact that most of what you see at street level is still shocking looking to those of us from developed countries, and people live in pretty bad living conditions- even the expensive apartments that many live in are bad by our standards. I know because my wife is from there and we go back fairly often to visit her family.
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Old 07-18-2013, 05:36 PM
 
5 posts, read 8,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davy-040 View Post
1st World:
Israel
Singapore
Macau
Hong Kong
Taiwan
South Korea
Japan

2nd World:
Turkey
Azerbaijan
Lebanon
Saudi Arabia
Kuwait
Bahrain
Qatar
UAE
Oman
Iran
Kazakhstan
Thailand
Malaysia
Brunei

3rd World:
Jordan
Syria
Iraq
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
India
Bhutan
Sri Lanka
Indonesia
Timor-Leste
Philippines
Vietnam
China
Mongolia

4th World:
Yemen
Afghanistan
Pakistan
Tajikistan
Kyrygzstan
Nepal
Bangladesh
Burma
Laos
Cambodia
North Korea
Agreed on the list, I also still say that Singapore is a firstworld. If Singapore is a 3rd world because of some dirty restroom and some side street food seller, I guess that will make S.Korea as 3rd too because S.Korea has exact those things as well.

Last edited by GCAO; 07-18-2013 at 05:53 PM..
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:12 AM
 
Location: Australia
1,058 posts, read 1,450,438 times
Reputation: 1695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davy-040 View Post
They are not part of Asia imo.
Well they're certainly not part of Europe.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:09 AM
bg7
 
7,697 posts, read 8,177,667 times
Reputation: 15093
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadgirl80 View Post
I've been to NYC many times. To compare NYC and Singapore is sort of like comparing a Ferrari and a rickshaw.

Singapore basically has no hinterland. Period. That's why its GDP per capita looks good compared to any big country. Despite that its GDP per capita is still below the USA with a vast population and varied industries. Comparing Singapore's GDP to cities alone in the USA should do the trick and shatter any illusions. Its GDP cannot even rival a city like Boston, NYC completely obliterates it. Taking both Boston and NYC metro area population, you'll see Singapore GDP per capita looks like ****. This is because of a lack of innovation and poor productivity in Singapore workforce, a fact that is well publicized in Singapore and openly confessed to by its politicians. Google it yourself. It has been using the trite formula of acting as a tax haven and a huge majority of its GDP comes from financial, legal, and other corporate services by inviting multinational foreign companies to go there and set up a southeast Asian office. It has no homegrown company that is international, few that are regional and few homegrown companies to begin with. People there do not start their own businesses. Most of them are salaried workhorses, much unlike other Asian countries like Japan, Taiwan and South Korea.

Have you been to Singapore and dealt with its retail sales and food and beverage staff? If you have, and I'm sure you have, and if you've lived in any American city, you'd know what I'm talking about.

Innovation and productivity are both huge problems.

The people in Singapore are mostly deep in delusions because of a lack of world exposure and effective government propaganda which has told them over decades funny stories about how they are comparable to first tier alpha cities and by drumming up the GDP per capita (of a city state half the size of London with no freaking hinterland LOL) to a bunch of people most of whom have no idea about the basics of economics 101.

For ya reading pleasure.

Singapore's productivity remains low: ICAEW report - Channel NewsAsia

SPRING - Facing up to the productivity challenge

ZDNet | S'pore Budget 2013 aims to up productivity, reduce foreign labor

Comparing the GDP per capita of Singapore with whole large countries with agricultural and varied industries like Japan, USA, France, Germany is a joke. The GDP per capita of Singapore cannot beat individual American cities by a very big margin. It's not on par with Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, LA, Houston, etc, any major American city. That's because it suffers from chronic innovation problems and low productivity, unskilled work force, especially compared to the US and Germany.
You can carry on beating the tired GDP story, but no-one seriously considers Singapore less than first world. Its a city-state, they have a long history of being first world of their times, like Venice. Hinterland is a non-issue, a red-herring. As for foreign labor - every restaurant, construction site, carwash and landscape company in NYC is all illiegal immigrant labor, paid less than staturotry minimum wage with no benefits, sick leave or vacation. Irrelevant, doesn't mean its not first world.

Good luck with your one-woman PR campaign to change perception, that'll work
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