U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Asia
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-19-2013, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Miami,FL
2,891 posts, read 3,287,062 times
Reputation: 683

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by sadgirl80 View Post
This whole GDP per capita thing is the usual Asian BS that people in Singapore enjoy deluding themselves with.

I grew up in a real first world country that few people in the universe would dispute its leadership status. I have family who were born and raised in Singapore all their lives. I have seem them a few times in my life.

It's about quality of life. Majority of Singaporeans live hard lives, in their tiny apartments, being squeezed in their public transportation, the squeeze there is completely unacceptable by North American standards.

Essentially the people there at least the leaders, are bright. But let's face it. There's only so much you can do with limited resources and the kind of constraints faced there. The place is so small yet its government insists on importing more foreigners to cram up the place. The leaders there have the delusion that they are a big country like the US, can take in all kinds and large numbers of "immigrants". The people there are so miserable, mainly. You have no idea how many relatives of mine are always asking my family to sponsor their visa to the US, to get a greencard, how desperate they are to get out.

Where do you live? Are you a Singaporean and have you lived in a big rich country before? Unless you have, I understand why you would be under the impression that your life is 'normal'.
I take it you don't like big cities. funny cuz i want my county gov to do the opposite. stop growing the city horizonataly and grow vertically. basically you gripe with singapore is that they have to deal with highly crowded and confined spaces. if that is what prevents a place from being highly developed then I guess NYC, LA, Tokyo,Seoul, Paris,London,etc are all terriable places to live and should be callled 3rd world. if you like country liveing fine but don't call city countries less developed because of it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-21-2013, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Texas
843 posts, read 1,377,377 times
Reputation: 491
Japan.

Japan is the first world in the first world, no doubt.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-21-2013, 04:39 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,131 posts, read 23,648,900 times
Reputation: 11616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Iran is 2nd world but China 3rd??

How many people really prefer living in Iran?
I think I'd like both places. Iran's HDI is actually better than China's and the government is fairly good at providing subsidies for the poor. For the wealthy and educated, life can actually be quite good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sadgirl80 View Post
This whole GDP per capita thing is the usual Asian BS that people in Singapore enjoy deluding themselves with.

I grew up in a real first world country that few people in the universe would dispute its leadership status. I have family who were born and raised in Singapore all their lives. I have seem them a few times in my life.

It's about quality of life. Majority of Singaporeans live hard lives, in their tiny apartments, being squeezed in their public transportation, the squeeze there is completely unacceptable by North American standards.

Essentially the people there at least the leaders, are bright. But let's face it. There's only so much you can do with limited resources and the kind of constraints faced there. The place is so small yet its government insists on importing more foreigners to cram up the place. The leaders there have the delusion that they are a big country like the US, can take in all kinds and large numbers of "immigrants". The people there are so miserable, mainly. You have no idea how many relatives of mine are always asking my family to sponsor their visa to the US, to get a greencard, how desperate they are to get out.

Where do you live? Are you a Singaporean and have you lived in a big rich country before? Unless you have, I understand why you would be under the impression that your life is 'normal'.

Eh, by your metric, most people living in dense, urban cities in first world countries are living in third world conditions. New Yorkers, Londoners, Parisians, Tokyoites, etc. are living in third world conditions with tiny apartments, reliance on mass transit, high density living, and many transplants (either domestically or internationally, though Singapore doesn't really have the option of domestic transplants since it's tiny). For Singapore, vis-a-vis other countries, there is only the option of living in the big city and there aren't really any suburbs to live in. Sure, I can buy the argument that those conditions are third world, but only when applied consistently to other major cities. Personally though, I would take any of these major cities over living in a smaller more spacious US city or out in the newer suburbs.

Also, I've lived in various parts of the US and East Asia and have traveled pretty extensively. Are my impressions of what a "normal" life is questionable, too?

My votes for first world countries/autonomous regions in Asia are:
Japan
Taiwan
South Korea
Hong Kong
Singapore
Israel

Not sure what to say about the Gulf Coast countries. They have really good metrics, but they generally have tiny populations of citizens and massive populations of immigrant workers. I'm not sure how to count that.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 07-21-2013 at 05:42 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-21-2013, 09:13 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,131 posts, read 23,648,900 times
Reputation: 11616
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I think I'd like both places. Iran's HDI is actually better than China's and the government is fairly good at providing subsidies for the poor. For the wealthy and educated, life can actually be quite good.




Eh, by your metric, most people living in dense, urban cities in first world countries are living in third world conditions. New Yorkers, Londoners, Parisians, Tokyoites, etc. are living in third world conditions with tiny apartments, reliance on mass transit, high density living, and many transplants (either domestically or internationally, though Singapore doesn't really have the option of domestic transplants since it's tiny). For Singapore, vis-a-vis other countries, there is only the option of living in the big city and there aren't really any suburbs to live in. Sure, I can buy the argument that those conditions are third world, but only when applied consistently to other major cities. Personally though, I would take any of these major cities over living in a smaller more spacious US city or out in the newer suburbs.

Also, I've lived in various parts of the US and East Asia and have traveled pretty extensively. Are my impressions of what a "normal" life is questionable, too?

My votes for first world countries/autonomous regions in Asia are:
Japan
Taiwan
South Korea
Hong Kong
Singapore
Israel

Not sure what to say about the Gulf Coast countries. They have really good metrics, but they generally have tiny populations of citizens and massive populations of immigrant workers. I'm not sure how to count that.
Left out Macau.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-23-2013, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Singapore
110 posts, read 215,608 times
Reputation: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadgirl80 View Post
Since you live in Singapore I'm sure you know why the prices of the apartments are so pricey right? It's the same reason as in Hong Kong. It's because of the high density. Singapore has no land that's why houses there cost 4-6 times than that in the USA and UK. It's not because its got a higher standard of living. Essentially, does cost of living = standard of living? No. Singapore loves to fool others, believing because things are expensive there, more so than anywhere else in the world, it is first world. Unfortunately it's but a pipe dream. Things cost an arm and leg for them because they have crazy constraints previously unknown to men. There's no sovereign country in the world with a higher density than Singapore, but Monaco, which most people would consider a Mickey Mouse state.

Outside of the business and tourist areas, the whole country where its real non-expat population live in is positively third world. The apartments look like communist blocks I saw of pictures of China when I was a child, which I'm not sure even exist in China anymore

Then there's the really bad English of the people there. People in China, South Korea and Japan have poor English too but I don't see them claiming to be an English speaking country.

The restrooms are especially filthy everywhere, I've never seen such filthy restrooms at least of such common occurrences, in USA, Japan and Germany. The only clean bathrooms I've found there are in hotels.

The outdoor, non air-conditioned eating places with food stalls are filthy and malodorous, in a consistent way too. I went to one in a place called Clementi and it smelled like rotten eggs, then a few days later I went to one in another end of the island and the exact same smell of rotten eggs was emanating from it!! I've never seen such outdoor eateries in the US, even in warm states in the South. In the US there are outdoor food courts but rarely (the one in famous Quincy Market in Boston and Farmer's markets in LA), but they are spotlessly clean and don't smell.

I understand you trotted out GDP per capita figures and such. Have you wondered why apart from the United States the top 5 countries in the GDP per capita list are MICROstates? MICROstates have a tiny population which allows its managers to easily manipulate figures by focusing on high yield economic services (notice how there's no farming of significant scale there since there's NO land to farm and so everything literally everything is imported and so expensive there lol) and having micro population means you can easily manage the variance.

There's no point in having "impressive" looking GDP per capita figures when the standard of living is so low. Most of the people there live in terrible conditions and they have these metal grilled gates outside each apartment no different from prison cells in the US. Majority can't even buy an automobile which is such a common thing that everybody in the US has or otherwise, can easily have, and the squeezing is so bad my relatives tell me they are dehumanized everyday with their pelvis literally stuck to a stranger's pelvis on the subway. Gross.

Majority of the wealth is held by foreigners who simply park their money with a permanent residence there because of its favorable tax laws and nothing else. The fact that most of the people there with money and splashing it did not make it there speaks volumes of social mobility there for the regular joe holding its citizenship.

Besides its soullessness, it tries too hard to be what it's not and it suffers from short man syndrome. I'd measure if a country is first world by its standard of living and people. Otherwise, China would be first world also since its economy is so big. I'd dispute the technology and amenities of homes is on par with the USA. Like all third world countries, it has an emphasis on manual labor intensiveness, that's why they don't have clothes drier, dishwasher and garbage disposal there, things that are in every American home for as long as sliced bread.
Well I will just pick certain elements of your post as its long and some of it is just ridiculous to be honest like the egg smell which I can say is BS on your part I work near Clementi and never once had that smell.

It seems you have issue with the restrooms there could be sh*t all over the walls it still would not make Singapore a 2nd world country, yes I agree if you happen to catch a restroom before its cleaned then they can be very disgusting but dont get hung up on this for your argument as to make Singapore not 1st world its not the case. This is the truth Singapore as a city is much cleaner and safer than most US cities and UK cities for that matter I say most and not all because I have not been to every city but I would be inclined to say all .

Did your visit to Singapore happen to be in the 80's? the standard of living for majority of locals is higher than many in the US take a ghetto/projects/government housing in the US or a council estate in the UK which is housing provided by the government then take an HDB estate in Singapore which is also government subsidised housing I can say the quality is much higher than what you will see in any council estate or US government housing which are all too familiar with high crime.

To buy a car in Singapore is one of the most expensive places in the world so you cant compare to the US because cars are much cheaper, I cannot afford a car here in Singapore that's how expensive it is. A price of a BMW is the same price as a Ferrari in the US that's the difference and I will tell you now that there are many BMW's, Mercedes and Audis owned by the locals.

The fact that you say most of the wealth if from the foreigners just makes me realise you really don't know what your talking about or maybe trolling, if you go to any private clubs or high end bars it will be full of Singaporeans.

Your long post is just a rant on Singapore I get it you hate it as I mentioned before I am not fond either but the whole argument was why you say that Singapore is a 2nd world nation? you have yet to answer this convincingly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-23-2013, 09:04 PM
 
1,789 posts, read 1,448,665 times
Reputation: 3680
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadgirl80 View Post
No. Singapore is 2nd or 3rd world. My dad was Chinese Singaporean (he's a naturalized US citizen now) and I often have to go to Singapore, if relatives die, or when things like that happen. Filthy filthy eating places, third world restrooms.....

....Compared to the United States, its a dump. And the people there have nasty English but claim to be English speaking....

..This whole GDP per capita thing is the usual Asian BS that people in Singapore enjoy deluding themselves with.....

....I grew up in a real first world country that few people in the universe would dispute its leadership status. I have family who were born and raised in Singapore all their lives. I have seem them a few times in my life.....

....It's about quality of life. Majority of Singaporeans live hard lives, in their tiny apartments, being squeezed in their public transportation, the squeeze there is completely unacceptable by North American standards.....

.....I've been to NYC many times. To compare NYC and Singapore is sort of like comparing a Ferrari and a rickshaw.....

.....People there do not start their own businesses.....

......Have you been to Singapore and dealt with its retail sales and food and beverage staff? If you have, and I'm sure you have, and if you've lived in any American city, you'd know what I'm talking about....

The people in Singapore are mostly deep in delusions....

.....That's because it suffers from chronic innovation problems and low productivity, unskilled work force, especially compared to the US and Germany.

Wow. Now you sound as clueless as those other 2 posters you were harping on in another thread about Singapore. I am starting to wonder if you have ever been to Singapore.

I have lived in Singapore in a HDB flat.....I know wtf I am talking about.

Singapore is the cleanest city I have ever been in as a whole. And I have been to many. Is it perfect...no.

I have lots of Singaporean friends and relatives that have started their own businesses..Its much easier to start a business in Singapore than it is to start one in the US.....

I think you are deep in delusions....

Singapore's workforce is highly skilled....you know nothing....Why on earth have so many companies moved in there that require highly skilled workers.....Hint: Its not because they have an unskilled workforce.

I agree in places the cleanliness is starting to slip. I believe this is in a large part due to a big influx of foreign workers who do not share the typical Singaporean values.

I wonder if you have really been to Singapore or not...

WTF does speaking English have to do with being 1st world? Besides Singapore his a very high percentage of English speakers. They can smoothly move from Singlish to plain English just fine and they do when in a more formal setting.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-23-2013, 09:41 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,603 posts, read 70,482,002 times
Reputation: 76571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momotaro View Post
Your dad being from a country does not make you an expert. Singapore is very first world.
She sounds like an expert to me! She knows the country really well! Just because there are highrise apts. with people living at 1st World levels doesn't mean it's a 1st World country. If that were all it took, then all of Latin America would be 1st world, because some people in the capitals live in nice apt. buildings.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-27-2013, 11:14 AM
 
Location: In the heights
22,131 posts, read 23,648,900 times
Reputation: 11616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
She sounds like an expert to me! She knows the country really well! Just because there are highrise apts. with people living at 1st World levels doesn't mean it's a 1st World country. If that were all it took, then all of Latin America would be 1st world, because some people in the capitals live in nice apt. buildings.
Well, there were a lot of other factors. Per capita wealth, percentage living in poverty, life expectancy, crime rates, educational attainment levels, etc. all favor Singapore as a first world country. Larger composite indices such as HDI also favor that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2013, 09:48 AM
 
2 posts, read 11,854 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by sadgirl80 View Post
This whole GDP per capita thing is the usual Asian BS that people in Singapore enjoy deluding themselves with.

I grew up in a real first world country that few people in the universe would dispute its leadership status. I have family who were born and raised in Singapore all their lives. I have seem them a few times in my life.

It's about quality of life. Majority of Singaporeans live hard lives, in their tiny apartments, being squeezed in their public transportation, the squeeze there is completely unacceptable by North American standards.

Essentially the people there at least the leaders, are bright. But let's face it. There's only so much you can do with limited resources and the kind of constraints faced there. The place is so small yet its government insists on importing more foreigners to cram up the place. The leaders there have the delusion that they are a big country like the US, can take in all kinds and large numbers of "immigrants". The people there are so miserable, mainly. You have no idea how many relatives of mine are always asking my family to sponsor their visa to the US, to get a greencard, how desperate they are to get out.

Where do you live? Are you a Singaporean and have you lived in a big rich country before? Unless you have, I understand why you would be under the impression that your life is 'normal'.
set me up with singaporean female, u.s. citizen here.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-19-2013, 01:40 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,235,411 times
Reputation: 2833
Others have already responded, but just a short response to sadgirl80's assertions...

My mother is Singaporean, I was born in Singapore but came here at a very young age, but have been back there many times. I have many relatives there so I know kind of what living there is like (although I haven't lived or worked there).

You (sadgirl80) make it out like Singapore is a dirty place, like third-world dirty...I think anyone who visits can judge for themselves. Singapore's foodcourts and outdoor hawkers centres have very strict health guidelines: something you won't find in much of Asia. Yes individual vendors might have grubby habits, and Singapore is a tropical country so there is a certain grittiness to it, but overall Singapore is a very clean, well-managed city.

Your gripe is that people live in tiny HDB flats behind prison like metal bars and are forced to ride public transport because they can't afford a car. Singapore's public transport system, especially the world-renowned MRT, is one of the best in the world for cleanliness, efficiency, safety...with the expansion it serves basically the whole island. Nowhere in Singapore is more than 2km walk from an MRT station. Cars are expensive, but anyone who lives in Singapore doesn't really need one. It's more of a status symbol.

HDB flats aren't all that tiny and most are clean and well-maintained. You should go to Hong Kong if you want to see crowded. While high density, Singapore has a 'garden city' feel with a lot of trees, parks and gardens, the apartment blocks are fairly well-spaced and I don't feel it is as cramped and chaotic as the likes of Hong Kong, Bangkok, let alone some Chinese or Indian cities.

Yes, the life in Singapore can be stressful. People tend to work hard and long hours. But the same can be said of Japan or the US. Sure politically it's not free and there are some archaic/draconian laws. But again, doesn't stop it from being a highly developed country.

Overall all your gripes are subjective (or untrue), Singapore is definitely developed and 'first world' by any measure: GDP, GDP per capita, income, health stats, life expectancy, quality of life. Sure, it's an island state, but it's a short and cheap plane ride to Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand.etc, and there are recreational opportunities in Singapore itself. You don't have to live in an exclusive condo to have a good quality of life in Sing. The food variety and scene is also really good.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Asia
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top