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Old 04-20-2014, 06:16 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,253,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
^ Well that's the reason the local official gave for the demolition of Kashgar's old town. Personally I think it's mostly BS. The Old town has stood for centuries, withstanding earthquakes.etc, it's not like it's on the verge of crumbling. Where repairs are required, it's easy to restore it. If the hutongs were as esteemed as the Forbidden City you don't think the Chinese can find a way to restore them? It's simply driven by greed, profits for the developers and the party officials.
Here in Toronto where there is a construction boom, old buildings are demolished and replaced every month. People complain and protest but in most cases in vain. Just because a building is old doesn't mean it needs to stay there forever. Land is precious and growth is necessary. Sometimes you have to make a choice. Preserving history is not the only unchallenged priority for a city.

 
Old 04-20-2014, 06:17 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,253,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
^ so are you saying the destruction of the hutongs are necessary and justified?
I am saying you can't keep all of them.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,231,639 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
I am saying you can't keep all of them.
Maybe not ALL but a heck of a lot more than they have done.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 06:23 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,231,639 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Here in Toronto where there is a construction boom, old buildings are demolished and replaced every month. People complain and protest but in most cases in vain. Just because a building is old doesn't mean it needs to stay there forever. Land is precious and growth is necessary. Sometimes you have to make a choice. Preserving history is not the only unchallenged priority for a city.
Ever heard of a heritage movement? They did that a lot in the 60s, until they realised a lot of people didn't want to just tear everything down, because it was part of the city's history and important to it. Of course in not all cases, but the Chinese attitude is much like the West in the 70s and before: in the new and out with the old. Very short-sighted. Then again the CCP has never cared much for history, culture or heritage.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 12:34 PM
 
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"Then again the CCP has never cared much for history, culture or heritage."


You are right. The CCP has its strengths and its weaknesses. It is great at standing up for China's sovereign rights...and that's something that the feeble Qing or the stupid peanut head KMT could never do in a million years. But the CCP is also ruthless sometimes, and so focused and centralized that it can go crazy, like the Great Leap and the Cultural Revolution with disastrous consequences.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Florida (SW)
39,285 posts, read 18,815,681 times
Reputation: 46578
I doubt that Tibetans will ever get their country back....anymore than the Lakota or Navajo or Cherokee, Choctaw, Mohawk, or the other First Nation peoples will ever get their country back.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 03:52 PM
 
26 posts, read 52,098 times
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You cannot keep using the past to justify current actions. The answer is that the U.S should let those states such as Hawaii go(what happens to the Indians is difficult to resolve, but where else can you expect the U.S citizens to go?), but since they won't, that doesn't mean that what the Chinese are doing is right. You can't just say, hey, because they land-grabbed in the past, we should be able to do it too.

If you're going with the principle that might is right, then well, technically, the U.S can just nuke you(and then the Europeans countries and Russians are left standing). If the Chinese are smart, then they should help the surrounding Asian countries develop nuclear weapons, not trying to land-grab. Acting like a bully will probably only get your own race get wiped out.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 03:58 PM
 
26 posts, read 52,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
As I've stated before I'm ultimately indifferent to the whole Tibet thing, if anything I do actually err on the side of China, but the comparison between the US' treatment of Native Americans and China's of Tibetans is off base because

1) the US campaign against the natives was a bona-fide genocide; China's never stated that their goal was to destroy the Tibetan people and they've never engaged in their systematic destruction or forced relocation. The Free Tibet movement has now moved on to the term "cultural genocide," which I find to be a loaded term. The Dalai Lama was expelled from China because he was a political dissident; Buddhists are still allowed to practice their religion and traditions. I've seen Tibetan monks here in Guangzhou for cultural events. They're hardly stripped of their robes and told to believe only in the state.

2) the US campaign against the natives took place over a hundred years ago; bringing up events that happened 100+ years ago is like a university in Kyrgyzstan bragging that they are on the cutting edge because they've developed a bicycle that uses a chain to drive a gear. So much has happened in the meantime and there's four or five generations of human history, experience, innovation, progress, etc that it's pointless to harp on. It's the same as people using the US' WW2 victories as an example of its current military might. None of the Westerners that are alive now decrying the situation in Tibet were alive when their home nations engaged in imperialism and thus they couldn't have had anything to do with it, so there really is no innate or automatic hypocrisy in their criticizing the situation.

My main qualm is that the claims of torture and genocide that you do hear people talk about are ripped straight out of a SAW movie or horror novel, yet there's next to no evidence to back it up. When I do an image search for "tibet genocide" on US Google, I come up with images of monks protesting and being surrounded by riot police who are not killing them. I see images of people self-immolating, which is their own doing, not that of the PRC or PLA. I see misappropriated images of Han Chinese criminals being executed. I see misappropriated images from the Vietnam War. I see old images of other Asian conflicts where people are wearing different regional and cultural outfits. With all the Tibetans that filter in and out, I find it implausible that at no point has anyone managed to smuggle out a MicroSD card filled with videos and images of this all-encompassing genocide that's oppressing the Tibetan people.
So basically, the Chinese's attitude is, we didn't kill you, just annexed you, and if you refuse to be a part of that, then we'll nuke you. Is that what civilized people do?
 
Old 04-20-2014, 05:36 PM
 
4,679 posts, read 3,609,147 times
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"the U.S can just nuke you"..

You do know that China has ICBMs too....it's call a nuclear deterrence.

For your information, the Chinese do not believe that they are being bullies. In fact, in the Diaoyu case, it is Japan who has stolen those islands by hiding behind the US. And it is the US who is acting like a bully by enabling the japanese. You are completely off base here. Try being more objective and fair when you look at world affairs.

By the way, China wont tolerate being nuked. That has to be the funniest thing I have even read on this board. The US can nuke China about 40 times, and China can do the same to the US once or twice....but even 1/4 of a nuke would completely collapse the US economy/government, so this point is indeed pointless. This has got to be the funniest statement I have ever read on the CD!

The fact that many Americans dont even know that China has nukes, and can/will nuke back if attacked, just amazes me. It is a testament to the general ignorance of the American people, and also the failure of Chinese foreign policy that has been emphasizing some ridiculous "peaceful rise". No power rises peacefully. You either elbow with your way up, or get shoved into the back. I think China is getting the message.

As for not using the American Natives as a foil...why not? How is it justified for Tibet freaks to demand that China give up 24% of its territories when the US (like many other countries) is practically built on bloody stolen land? If American landowners don't want to hand over their land to the Native nations, why do you think the Chinese people, or the Chinese government should give up Tibetan land? What a preposterous idea.

"Is that what civilized people do?"...

Well, I wouldn't put it that way. But in the end, it's probably just as justified as American soldiers and drones attacking villages around the world. It might go something like this.."Some crazies flew some planes into our buildings, and kill a bunch of innocent people, so now we are hunting for anyone that looks like the guys who are friends with the guys who did it, and if little kids and women get killed along the way, then too bad."

So is that also how civilized people behave?

My point is...The US hands are too dirty to be lecturing China.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 07:39 PM
 
26 posts, read 52,098 times
Reputation: 14
Again, you cannot use what the U.S did as a precedent for what you're doing. We all know that was wrong. Let's put the U.S out of this for the moment, what if the European nations stepped in and say that you need to leave the Tibetans alone? Without some kind of universal rules, then all of these laws and acting civilized are meaningless. You might as well say that we should start killing babies, because hey, they're weak, and we're strong, so we can just kill them right?
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