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Old 04-18-2014, 03:52 PM
 
1,434 posts, read 2,120,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickerman View Post
Part of the problem is the Chinese rivers have their source in Tibetan mountains. If Tibet is ever free from China they could cut of china's water supply.



Not just China. It affects India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan as well. Tibet should have been left alone. They alone should have controlled the flow of water and I am quite certain, they would have been quite sincere about it. The Chinese are quietly damming the Brahaputra in Tibet. This will have a serious effect on South Asia.

 
Old 04-18-2014, 03:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
this should be repeated every time westerners talk about Tibet --- most don't have the slightest idea of what Tibet was like before 1950 all i can say is you don't want to live there


So you are saying CHina did Tibet a favor by invading ?
 
Old 04-18-2014, 03:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iansmith View Post
Tibetans pretty much benefited from Chinese rule, a lot of them managed to get enrolled with university and get a good job there rather than being a peasant and servants of the elite monks.
Sure they did because Tibet was not Independent and able to benefit being a free nation in the 20th century.
 
Old 04-18-2014, 04:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
This is the thing. While most Tibetans outside Tibet are for complete independence, probably a majority of Tibetans in Tibet don't support that.


The reality is that those outside of China have the freedom to speak their mind openly. The Tibetans in China do not.
 
Old 04-18-2014, 04:10 PM
 
183 posts, read 210,501 times
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I live in New York, and I see Tibetans demonstrate in front of the U.N. headquarters ALL THE TIME. So often that it's not even funny. And it's not just Tibet, but hordes of South East Asian countries with banners screaming "Shame China Shame". Heck, I hear it so often I memorized the chantings.
They oviously don't seem so happy.
 
Old 04-18-2014, 04:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
Although at least the Chinese aren't massacring the natives like the Americans did the native Americans.



Torture, detention, Slave camps.....looks like things haven;t changed much
 
Old 04-18-2014, 04:23 PM
 
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According to supporters of Tibetan independence, Tibet was a distinct nation and state independent between the fall of the Mongol Empire in 1368 and subjugation by the Qing Dynasty in 1720; and again between the fall of the Qing Dynasty in 1912 and its incorporation into the PRC in 1951. Moreover, even during the periods of nominal subjugation to the Yuan and Qing, Tibet was largely self-governing. As such, the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) views current PRC rule in Tibet as illegitimate, motivated solely by the natural resources and strategic value of Tibet, and in violation of both Tibet's historical status as an independent country and the right of the Tibetan people to self-determination. It also points to PRC's autocratic and divide-and-rule policies, and assimilationist policies, regarding those as an example of imperialism bent on destroying Tibet's distinct ethnic makeup, culture, and identity, thereby cementing it as an indivisible part of China. After the fall of the Qing Dynasty, both Mongolia and TIbet declared independence and recognized each other as such.

On the other hand, opponents assert that the PRC rules Tibet legitimately, by saying that Tibet has been part of Chinese history since 7th century as Tibetan Empire has close interaction with the Chinese dynasties through royal marriage. In addition to the de facto power that the Chinese has since then, Yuan Dynasty conquest in 13th century and that all subsequent Chinese governments (Ming Dynasty, Qing Dynasty, Republic of China, and People's Republic of China) have been exercising de jure sovereignty power over Tibet.
 
Old 04-18-2014, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,276,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistertee View Post
According to supporters of Tibetan independence, Tibet was a distinct nation and state independent between the fall of the Mongol Empire in 1368 and subjugation by the Qing Dynasty in 1720; and again between the fall of the Qing Dynasty in 1912 and its incorporation into the PRC in 1951. Moreover, even during the periods of nominal subjugation to the Yuan and Qing, Tibet was largely self-governing. As such, the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) views current PRC rule in Tibet as illegitimate, motivated solely by the natural resources and strategic value of Tibet, and in violation of both Tibet's historical status as an independent country and the right of the Tibetan people to self-determination. It also points to PRC's autocratic and divide-and-rule policies, and assimilationist policies, regarding those as an example of imperialism bent on destroying Tibet's distinct ethnic makeup, culture, and identity, thereby cementing it as an indivisible part of China. After the fall of the Qing Dynasty, both Mongolia and TIbet declared independence and recognized each other as such.

On the other hand, opponents assert that the PRC rules Tibet legitimately, by saying that Tibet has been part of Chinese history since 7th century as Tibetan Empire has close interaction with the Chinese dynasties through royal marriage. In addition to the de facto power that the Chinese has since then, Yuan Dynasty conquest in 13th century and that all subsequent Chinese governments (Ming Dynasty, Qing Dynasty, Republic of China, and People's Republic of China) have been exercising de jure sovereignty power over Tibet.
The Tibet situation is repeated in hundreds of places around the world. How many want to declare sovereignty? We'll end up with 500 instead of 200 nations...
 
Old 04-19-2014, 08:06 PM
 
4,710 posts, read 3,627,252 times
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Personally, why would anyone care? Tibet belongs to China. Get use to it. Much of the US was conquered from the Native peoples. At least there are now more than 3 million Tibetans alive today. How many Sioux are left in the world? Cherokees? Seminoles?

Funny how Americans did such a good job with their native "problem", but now they complain about Chinese "genocide" of Tibetans. The Tibetan population is rising, and that's a lot more than one can say about any of the American Native tribes.

As for the protests against China, for every one of those in NY, you can find 10 against Americans and their endless wars around the world. The Tibet freaks get their air time because they are the Hollywood "cause de jour". China does not care about Brad, Angelina or Bono.
 
Old 04-19-2014, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,783 posts, read 13,376,732 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Personally, why would anyone care? Tibet belongs to China. Get use to it. Much of the US was conquered from the Native peoples. At least there are now more than 3 million Tibetans alive today. How many Sioux are left in the world? Cherokees? Seminoles?

Funny how Americans did such a good job with their native "problem", but now they complain about Chinese "genocide" of Tibetans. The Tibetan population is rising, and that's a lot more than one can say about any of the American Native tribes.

As for the protests against China, for every one of those in NY, you can find 10 against Americans and their endless wars around the world. The Tibet freaks get their air time because they are the Hollywood "cause de jour". China does not care about Brad, Angelina or Bono.
As I've stated before I'm ultimately indifferent to the whole Tibet thing, if anything I do actually err on the side of China, but the comparison between the US' treatment of Native Americans and China's of Tibetans is off base because

1) the US campaign against the natives was a bona-fide genocide; China's never stated that their goal was to destroy the Tibetan people and they've never engaged in their systematic destruction or forced relocation. The Free Tibet movement has now moved on to the term "cultural genocide," which I find to be a loaded term. The Dalai Lama was expelled from China because he was a political dissident; Buddhists are still allowed to practice their religion and traditions. I've seen Tibetan monks here in Guangzhou for cultural events. They're hardly stripped of their robes and told to believe only in the state.

2) the US campaign against the natives took place over a hundred years ago; bringing up events that happened 100+ years ago is like a university in Kyrgyzstan bragging that they are on the cutting edge because they've developed a bicycle that uses a chain to drive a gear. So much has happened in the meantime and there's four or five generations of human history, experience, innovation, progress, etc that it's pointless to harp on. It's the same as people using the US' WW2 victories as an example of its current military might. None of the Westerners that are alive now decrying the situation in Tibet were alive when their home nations engaged in imperialism and thus they couldn't have had anything to do with it, so there really is no innate or automatic hypocrisy in their criticizing the situation.

My main qualm is that the claims of torture and genocide that you do hear people talk about are ripped straight out of a SAW movie or horror novel, yet there's next to no evidence to back it up. When I do an image search for "tibet genocide" on US Google, I come up with images of monks protesting and being surrounded by riot police who are not killing them. I see images of people self-immolating, which is their own doing, not that of the PRC or PLA. I see misappropriated images of Han Chinese criminals being executed. I see misappropriated images from the Vietnam War. I see old images of other Asian conflicts where people are wearing different regional and cultural outfits. With all the Tibetans that filter in and out, I find it implausible that at no point has anyone managed to smuggle out a MicroSD card filled with videos and images of this all-encompassing genocide that's oppressing the Tibetan people.
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