U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Asia
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 04-20-2014, 03:07 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,269,689 times
Reputation: 2833

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
As I've stated before I'm ultimately indifferent to the whole Tibet thing, if anything I do actually err on the side of China, but the comparison between the US' treatment of Native Americans and China's of Tibetans is off base because

1) the US campaign against the natives was a bona-fide genocide; China's never stated that their goal was to destroy the Tibetan people and they've never engaged in their systematic destruction or forced relocation. The Free Tibet movement has now moved on to the term "cultural genocide," which I find to be a loaded term. The Dalai Lama was expelled from China because he was a political dissident; Buddhists are still allowed to practice their religion and traditions. I've seen Tibetan monks here in Guangzhou for cultural events. They're hardly stripped of their robes and told to believe only in the state.

2) the US campaign against the natives took place over a hundred years ago; bringing up events that happened 100+ years ago is like a university in Kyrgyzstan bragging that they are on the cutting edge because they've developed a bicycle that uses a chain to drive a gear. So much has happened in the meantime and there's four or five generations of human history, experience, innovation, progress, etc that it's pointless to harp on. It's the same as people using the US' WW2 victories as an example of its current military might. None of the Westerners that are alive now decrying the situation in Tibet were alive when their home nations engaged in imperialism and thus they couldn't have had anything to do with it, so there really is no innate or automatic hypocrisy in their criticizing the situation.

My main qualm is that the claims of torture and genocide that you do hear people talk about are ripped straight out of a SAW movie or horror novel, yet there's next to no evidence to back it up. When I do an image search for "tibet genocide" on US Google, I come up with images of monks protesting and being surrounded by riot police who are not killing them. I see images of people self-immolating, which is their own doing, not that of the PRC or PLA. I see misappropriated images of Han Chinese criminals being executed. I see misappropriated images from the Vietnam War. I see old images of other Asian conflicts where people are wearing different regional and cultural outfits. With all the Tibetans that filter in and out, I find it implausible that at no point has anyone managed to smuggle out a MicroSD card filled with videos and images of this all-encompassing genocide that's oppressing the Tibetan people.
So there's a lot of deceptiveness going on? Yeah when that little nugget gets out it's not going to help the self-righteous Hollywood 'Free Tibet' crowd.

 
Old 04-20-2014, 04:16 AM
 
4,710 posts, read 3,624,053 times
Reputation: 7405
The fact is that, in order to further their pointless agenda, the Tibet freaks will use any method to sway opinion. I still remember CNN or BBC using a movie set shot to claim that PLA soldiers were beating monks in 2008. It was so ridiculous, but when someone pointed that out, they pretend to not know anything about it. I don't take anything about Tibet from CNN or BBC seriously. Do your own research if you really care.

That said, it is relevant to bring up the US policy because the US has no moral authority to criticize China when its own history is so bloody. No one is ever claiming China or the US is perfect. Chinese rights abuses are well documented, and Tibetans are not alone in receiving the harsh end of the Chinese stick. That does not give the Tibetans the right to demand independence. It does mean that the world should help China grow and evolve into a more individually oriented civic society.

Cultural genocide is not only a loaded term, but an even more useless one. Can France also claim that the US is carrying out cultural genocide with so many McDonalds's and Starbucks in every Parisian street corner?
 
Old 04-20-2014, 04:32 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,269,689 times
Reputation: 2833
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
The fact is that, in order to further their pointless agenda, the Tibet freaks will use any method to sway opinion. I still remember CNN or BBC using a movie set shot to claim that PLA soldiers were beating monks in 2008. It was so ridiculous, but when someone pointed that out, they pretend to not know anything about it. I don't take anything about Tibet from CNN or BBC seriously. Do your own research if you really care.

That said, it is relevant to bring up the US policy because the US has no moral authority to criticize China when its own history is so bloody. No one is ever claiming China or the US is perfect. Chinese rights abuses are well documented, and Tibetans are not alone in receiving the harsh end of the Chinese stick. That does not give the Tibetans the right to demand independence. It does mean that the world should help China grow and evolve into a more individually oriented civic society.

Cultural genocide is not only a loaded term, but an even more useless one. Can France also claim that the US is carrying out cultural genocide with so many McDonalds's and Starbucks in every Parisian street corner?
Well I will say China does desecrate culture, both 'Han' and minority, I mean from the Cultural Revolution onwards...
 
Old 04-20-2014, 04:44 AM
 
4,710 posts, read 3,624,053 times
Reputation: 7405
Absolutely, in its haste to modernity, the Chinese are too quick to bulldoze anything standing in their way, be it the hutongs or anything else. That is part of the growing pain for a relatively undeveloped country with a long tradition as it transform into a more modern one, whatever that means.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 04:51 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,269,689 times
Reputation: 2833
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Absolutely, in its haste to modernity, the Chinese are too quick to bulldoze anything standing in their way, be it the hutongs or anything else. That is part of the growing pain for a relatively undeveloped country with a long tradition as it transform into a more modern one, whatever that means.
It's hardly necessary. I mean you don't have to bulldoze the hutongs to make way for generic apartment blocks or malls or whatever. Why doesn't the Chinese government recognise their historical and cultural value? They're also a big tourist draw. Our hotel in Beijing was in a hutong, I wonder if that hutong is still there. It's very sad, hundreds of years of not only built history but social fabric destroyed...
 
Old 04-20-2014, 04:58 AM
 
188 posts, read 450,170 times
Reputation: 146
Hey - do you care about Hawaiians getting their country back? Or the Guamanians? Or the Samoans?

Your country does as much colonialist **** as the Chinese.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 05:54 AM
 
4,710 posts, read 3,624,053 times
Reputation: 7405
"It's very sad, hundreds of years of not only built history but social fabric destroyed..."...

True. But my understanding is that many of the hutongs are so old and dangerous that one cannot add in modern plumbing and heating. So, if you want to live in such a place, then you certainly have a gripe. Most people would prefer the modern comfort of life over some historical attachment, at least many Chinese feel this way. It's very easy for you and me to point finger at cultural destruction while far away in our relative comfort. It's easy for me to romanticize the hutongs when I am in my nice colonial here in Wollaston Hill outside of Boston, with good plumbing, clean water, gas heat and a nice yard to enjoy. Try living in an old hutong subdivision where you need to run down the block just to pee or poop, and bath in a communal bathhouse everyday....and use smelly coal burners for heat and old style kitchen with a shared built-in wok that takes only sooty coal bricks or tree sticks that you forage in the park....not comfortable at all. Those generic apartment high-rises are indeed boring and dour...but at least they have running water and clean heat.

"Hey - do you care about Hawaiians getting their country back? Or the Guamanians? Or the Samoans?"...

That's what I usually ask when I run into a Tibet freak in Cambridge, MA. They usually give me a blank look and tell me they dont even know the history of Hawaii, or Samoa etc. That's how pathetic they are.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 06:09 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,269,689 times
Reputation: 2833
^ Well that's the reason the local official gave for the demolition of Kashgar's old town. Personally I think it's mostly BS. The Old town has stood for centuries, withstanding earthquakes.etc, it's not like it's on the verge of crumbling. Where repairs are required, it's easy to restore it. If the hutongs were as esteemed as the Forbidden City you don't think the Chinese can find a way to restore them? It's simply driven by greed, profits for the developers and the party officials.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 06:13 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,281,099 times
Reputation: 7586
^Pennyone, nicely put. Very insightful. This is someone who truly knows and cares about the things we talk about, instead of conveniently pointing fingers and say "how can they not preserve this and that".

That being said, Beijing did many things terribly wrong. For example, they shouldn't develop the city from the old core resulting in demolition of many historical buildings. Paris is a good example of both preserving the history and promoting growth. Suzhou in China also did better by building a new development zone away from the old city.

In criticizing China about Tibet, western countries rarely look at themselves in the mirror. Will France give up Martinique? Why did the UK go to war to keep Falkland? I am sure being thousands of miles away, they didn't own those territories from day 1, did they?

Tibet will remain part of China. Time to accept it. "when will Tibetans get their country back" - yeah, no brainwashing here. What about the southwestern US acquired from Mexico?

Cast a poll in Tibet and I doubt more than 10% of Tibetans want total independence from China.
 
Old 04-20-2014, 06:14 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,269,689 times
Reputation: 2833
^ so are you saying the destruction of the hutongs are necessary and justified?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Asia
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top