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Old 01-14-2014, 01:44 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,672,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
What about the Sephardic Jews from Iraq and Yemen?

The Palestinian Arabs in 1948 left according to the instructions from the neighboring Arab countries army commanders. Hear in his own words a Palestinian Arab saying this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iR5nDFhBL0
Not all Palestineans identify as Arab.

Palestinean and Jewish are not mutually exclusive. Arab and Jewish are mutually exclusive either.

Many of these labels are controversial and contentious.

Most so called "Arabs" are Christians. There are many "Arabs" that are Jews and many Arabs that are Muslims.

There are many or rather some modern day Palestineans that identify as Jewish, and many Palestineans that do not identify acknowledge that they have "Hebrew Semitic Jewish" ancestors.

This whole Israel vs Palestine conflict has splintered up and divided up people in so many ways imaginable. *Sigh* smh.
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:47 PM
 
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Mandela's Memo to Thomas Friedman About Israel & Palestine

By Nelson Mandela, in Jefferson Corner - America's Speaker's Corner, 28 March 2001

"Dear Thomas,

I know that you and I long for peace in the Middle East, but before you continue to talk about necessary conditions from an Israeli perspective, you need to know what’s on my mind. Where to begin? How about 1964.Let me quote my own words during my trial. They are true today as they were then: “I have fought against white domination and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.”

Today the world, black and white, recognize that Apartheid has no future. In South Africa it has been ended by our own decisive mass action in order to build peace and security. That mass campaign of defiance and other actions could only culminate in the establishment of Democracy.

Perhaps it is strange for you to observe the situation in Palestine or more specifically, the structure of political and cultural relationships between Palestinians and Israelis, as an Apartheid system. This is because you incorrectly think that the problem of Palestine began in 1967. This was demonstrated in your recent column “Bush’s First Memo” in the New York Times on March 27, 2001.

You seem to be surprised to hear that there are still problems of 1948 to be solved, the most important component of which is the right to return of Palestinian refugees. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not just an issue of military occupation and Israel is not a country that was established “normally” and happened to occupy another country in 1967. Palestinians are not struggling for a “state” but for freedom, liberation and equality, just like we were struggling for freedom in South Africa.


In the last few years, and especially during the reign of the Labour Party, Israel showed that it was not even willing to return what it occupied in 1967; that Settlements remain, Jerusalem would be under exclusive Israeli sovereignty, and Palestinians would not have an independent state, but would be under Israeli economic domination with Israeli control of borders, land, air, water and sea.

Israel was not thinking of a “state” but of “separation”. The value of separation is measured in terms of the ability of Israel to keep the Jewish state Jewish, and not to have a Palestinian minority that could have the opportunity to become a majority at some time in the future. If this takes place, it would force Israel to either become a secular democratic or bi-national state, or to turn into a state of Apartheid not only de facto, but also de jure.


Thomas, if you follow the polls in Israel for the last 30 or 40 years, you clearly find a vulgar racism that includes a third of the population who openly declare themselves to be racist. This racism is of the nature of “I hate Arabs” and “I wish Arabs would be dead”.

If you also follow the judicial system in Israel you will see there is discrimination against Palestinians, and if you further consider the 1967 Occupied Territories you will find there are already two judicial systems in operation that represent two different approaches to human life: one for Palestinian life and the other for Jewish life. Additionally there are two different approaches to property and to land. Palestinian property is not recognized as private property because it can be confiscated.

As to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, there is an additional factor. The so-called “Palestinian autonomous areas” are Bantustans. These are restricted entities within the power structure of the Israeli Apartheid system.


The Palestinian state cannot be the by-product of the Jewish state, just in order to keep the Jewish purity of Israel. Israel’s racial discrimination is daily life of most Palestinians. Since Israel is a Jewish state, Israeli Jews are able to accrue special rights which non-Jews cannot do. Palestinian Arabs have no place in a “Jewish” state.

Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.

The responses made by South Africa to human rights abuses emanating from the removal policies and Apartheid policies respectively, shed light on what Israeli society must necessarily go through before one can speak of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East and an end to its Apartheid policies.

Thomas, I’m not abandoning Mideast diplomacy. But I’m not going to indulge you the way your supporters do. If you want peace and democracy, I will support you. If you want formal Apartheid, we will not support you. If you want to support racial discrimination and ethnic cleansing, we will oppose you.

When you figure out what you’re about, give me a call."

http://www.keghart.com/Mandela-Palestine
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
They were Palestinian Jews of course.

Also there were Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews that came to the area in the 1800s from Russia.
True.

There were Juhuro (Mountain Jews) that migrated from the Caucacus Mountains to Israel in the 1800s and 1900s, and some Jews from the nation of Georgia even came to Israel as well in the 1800s and 1900s.

I wonder why it took so much of worldwide Jewish diaspora to come to Israel until 1948.

If Israel is the homeland or birthright of Jews, why didn't many or even most migrate before the 1948 creation of Israel?
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Under British control all birth certificates stated Palestine.

Under Ottoman control each birth certificate stated what Sanjuk they lived in.



So when Palestinians Arab leaders talk about Jerusalem, they are not talking about the fortress that most people think is Jerusalem. They are talking about the Ottoman region of Jerusalem.
Ah ok.

But you didn't answer my other inquiries.

Has your family at one time ever identified as Arabs and simultaneously as Jewish up until or after Israel was created in 1948?

By Levant Mizrahi do you mean Palestine or from Jordan or Syria or Lebanon?

Do you support the way Israel was created or did your family believe in Zionism or did they accept or not accept the idea of a Jewish state?

Also I know of many Palestinean Jews and local Jews displaced because of the post 1948 conflict, giving preference to Azhkenazi Jewish settlers etc. And many Palestinean Jews were treated in the same light or same disregard as Palestinean Muslims and Palestinean Christians. Also some of the so called "Palestinean Arabs" were/are JEWS.

It's also important to note that there are some Palestineans that reject the label of Arab, in the same way some Mizrahi and Middle Eastern Jews may not identify as Arab Jews. Something to consider.

Do you believe that the semantics or establishment of Israel post 1948, has complicated or obfuscated or splintered Jewish identity or made it more contentious or rigid?
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Old 01-14-2014, 02:09 PM
 
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Living under occupation: Daily Life in Occupied Palestine
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Old 01-14-2014, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,353 posts, read 24,079,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
Ah ok.

But you didn't answer my other inquiries.

(1)Has your family at one time ever identified as Arabs and simultaneously as Jewish up until or after Israel was created in 1948?

(2)By Levant Mizrahi do you mean Palestine or from Jordan or Syria or Lebanon?

(3)Do you support the way Israel was created or did your family believe in Zionism or did they accept or not accept the idea of a Jewish state?

(4)Also I know of many Palestinean Jews and local Jews displaced because of the post 1948 conflict, giving preference to Azhkenazi Jewish settlers etc. And many Palestinean Jews were treated in the same light or same disregard as Palestinean Muslims and Palestinean Christians. Also some of the so called "Palestinean Arabs" were/are JEWS.

(5)It's also important to note that there are some Palestineans that reject the label of Arab, in the same way some Mizrahi and Middle Eastern Jews may not identify as Arab Jews. Something to consider.

(6)Do you believe that the semantics or establishment of Israel post 1948, has complicated or obfuscated or splintered Jewish identity or made it more contentious or rigid?
(1) Always have been Jewish. My paternal line comes from Northern Jerusalem and mixed with the European lines in the late 1800's who moved there. They are currently known as Ger Hasidim. I'm part of that group (but no longer a Hasid) but have no genes from them (not intermarried) My maternal line comes from Eastern Jerusalem and by all birth certificates pre-WW1 they were all born there for 100's of years.
* As a side not, my father did go to Poland to be educated as a Rabbi but got caught up in the Holocaust and ended up in Auschwitz for four years.
(2) Jerusalem under the Ottomans, Palestine under the British
(3) According to my family, it was a change in regime. As long as they could live their lives as they did for generations it really didn't matter.
(4) After the 1948 war, both towns/farms/lands residents were evicted because they were on the wrong side of the 1949 Armistice line. They were marched out by Arabs allowed only what they could carry. They were re-settled in a town south of Tel Aviv. Parents moved to the US 10 years later.
(5) Whatever
(6) Too much to answer in a simple paragraph. So I'll give you my 1%. IMO the Ashkenazi way of life ruined the way Sephardic/Mizrahi people lived their lives in line with Muslims. a majority of the people were Sephardic/Mizrahi and the minority secular Zionists ended up in control. Israel exists and that's it. There is no longer a need for the Zionist spiel. It's outdated as the country already exists. Jewish identity is not a problem in Israel, it is a problem in the US.
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Old 01-14-2014, 03:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by scobby View Post
That was not the policiy of the Gov't of Jordan to expell palestinians,the video is about an israeli son of a general who knows from the inside what the successive israeli governements policy was since the creation of the state of israel.
[
So are you saying that this Palestinian Arab is lying about being told by the Jordanian Army to leave the area? I don't think there is any reason for him to be not telling the truth.
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Old 01-14-2014, 03:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
True.

If Israel is the homeland or birthright of Jews, why didn't many or even most migrate before the 1948 creation of Israel?
Well during the time of the British Mandate, there was a quota system in place for the amount visas for Jews to come settle there. So Jews couldn't just free emigrate even if they wanted to.
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Old 01-14-2014, 03:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
So are you saying that this Palestinian Arab is lying about being told by the Jordanian Army to leave the area? I don't think there is any reason for him to be not telling the truth.
I never said that,i said it's a crappy example,i give you an israeli scholar,former military,son of well-known israeli general Peled example and u keep arguing with me about insignifiant things.

That's your usual tactic !!


Norman Finkelstein - Political scientist - BBC HARDtalk 2012

Maybe this time,you're going to say something right about this video.
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Old 01-14-2014, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,353 posts, read 24,079,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
So are you saying that this Palestinian Arab is lying about being told by the Jordanian Army to leave the area? I don't think there is any reason for him to be not telling the truth.

He knows nothing of the Grand Mufti and all the mis-information he sent out due to being allied with the Nazi Regime in WW2. He has a computer and yet refuses to verify anything we type. Its as if he's reading from a Palestinian textbook. He does not understand that Arabs were told to temporarily leave their homes so the invading Arab soldiers could easily shoot anyone without worrying if they were Arabs or Jews. He does not understand that the Negev Jews dressed very much the same as the Negev Arabs. He must picture all of them as being dressed as European Jews.
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