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Old 04-18-2015, 05:26 PM
 
6,722 posts, read 6,599,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
Not true. Consumer prices are generally higher in China. Real estate is generally more expensive. And China has almost no safety net. Someone earning $300 per month in the U.S. is getting hundreds a month in govt. food support alone.

A very poor person in a first world country lives much better than a very poor person in China. I mean, it isn't even close. The poorest 20% of Americans would be among the richest 40% or so of Chinese.
You are wrong and changing the topic.

Nobody says poor people in China live better than poor people in the US. My point is, poverty lines of different countries cannot be compared directly. $300 is definitely under poverty line in the US, but not in China. Also, China government gives money to those who have a very low income too. It is called 低保 in Chinese. The problem is, it is not extended to peasants.

In addition, most urban residents in China actually own an apartment or house. The exception is migrant workers, but they usually own a house in their village. Even working class in Shanghai (I mean those who were born in Shanghai) typically own an apartment.
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Old 04-18-2015, 05:27 PM
 
6,722 posts, read 6,599,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valsteele View Post
This is why I'm skeptical of the idea China is doing "so well" economically right now. There might be more money shoveling through the country but if China is so modern and rich now, how come nobody can afford to live in all their "ghost cities" or shop in their empty malls?
The "ghost cities" are exaggerated by US media. Usually they get filled up in several years.
Of course there are failed projects too, but they are like 0.1% in China.
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Old 04-18-2015, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Singapore
653 posts, read 539,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Tokyo with 35 million population (Canada's entire population) has been by far the world's largest metropolitan area for years on a land of 13.5k sq km. In comparison, New York while with 30% more land, has only 22-23 million. NYC will probably never be bigger than Tokyo.

However, Shanghai seems to be catching up. The municipality alone has 24 million already, vast majority (95%) urban. There are quite a few nearby smaller cities which are increasingly being intregrated into Shanghai. Suzhou for example, has 5.5M, and in a few years, the subway system in the two cities will be connected

Last year with the extension of Line 11 into Kunshan, par of Suzhou in Jiangsu province, Shanghai Metro became the first rapid transit system in China to connect two provincial-level administrative divisions. There are plans to further connect the Shanghai Metro with the metro systems of Suzhou and even Wuxi.

Then there is Huzhou and Jiaxing on the south/southwest, all within 2.5 hours driving distance.

I wouldn't include Nanjing and Hangzhou, capital of Jiangsu and Zhejiang. Both are within 3 hours distance from Shanghai. They will probably remain their own cities just like Philly will never be part of New York.

Currently, these smaller (only by Chinese standard) cities are not integrated into Greater Shanghai Area (GSA), but with rapid urbanization and the expanding of Shanghai's influence, including the fast growth of subway system as well as high speed rail, it is totally likely that they will be within the next decade.

Also note that these are not poor regions. Shanghai's per capita GDP is $15K nominal and $20K PPP. Suzhou's per capital GDP is $18K nominal and $24k PPP. Xuxi $17K nominal, $23K PPP.

Shanghai already overtook Tokyo as Asia's most important stock market
Shanghai Overtakes Tokyo as Busiest Asia Stock Market (Update1) - Bloomberg

Can we project that by 2025, Shanghai may overtake Tokyo as the world's largest metropolitan area?

It is first very important to define just exactly what does the term "surpass" exactly means..........

I mean, surpass in exactly size of urban population, in size of surface area that is urbanized, or in economic terms, GDP per capita, Gini Co-efficient, political stability or what?

If you mean in terms of urban population and the surface area that is metropolitan, and in economic terms, then I would say that Shanghai has already far surpassed Tokyo as far back as 6-8 years ago..

But in terms of social stability, (the Shanghai New Year Stampede Deaths), in terms of political stability (the arrest of Chen Liangyu/陈良宇), or just in terms of general cleanliness (no littering), then I would say 2050 -2070 may be a more realistic target.
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Old 04-18-2015, 11:41 PM
 
Location: Singapore
64 posts, read 65,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
I have no idea what "Alpha plus city" means, but Mexico City is richer than Shanghai. It has a higher median income. It looks and feels richer, and indeed it is richer.

And anyone who thinks Shanghai is the economic equivalent of HK, Tokyo, Singapore or Paris is taking some serious drugs. Shanghai is still a poor developing world city, no matter how many flashy skyscrapers are built.
Shanghai rank top 20 financial hub in the world. Mexico City no where near. Shanghai has more millionaires than Mexico City. Global city - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Shanghai is a alpha plus city on the hand Mexico city is just an alpha city. Deal with it Mexico City is less influential compared to Shanghai.
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Old 04-19-2015, 09:29 AM
 
9,701 posts, read 7,244,373 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samngchaoyu View Post
Shanghai rank top 20 financial hub in the world. Mexico City no where near. Shanghai has more millionaires than Mexico City.
A financial hub has nothing to do with a city's relative development and wealth. LA doesn't have any financial clout, yet has more wealth than any city on earth except for NYC and Tokyo. Hong Kong is a huge financial hub yet the average person lives much worse than anywhere in the U.S.

And Shanghai isn't a major financial hub anyways. I can easily name 10-15 cities that are more important financial centers. In Asia alone, HK, Singapore and Tokyo are all more important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samngchaoyu View Post
Shanghai is a alpha plus city on the hand Mexico city is just an alpha city. Deal with it.
No, you need to "deal with it". You are linking to a website you don't even understand. The Global City rankings has nothing to do with a city's relative wealth or importance. It's ranking cities by global interconnectivity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samngchaoyu View Post
Mexico City is less influential compared to Shanghai.
I don't think this is true. In any case, Mexico City is richer than Shanghai. "Influential" is completely subjective, wealth isn't.
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Old 04-20-2015, 07:26 AM
 
448 posts, read 499,151 times
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Most people in HK probably do not agree.

Lack of space or expensive real estate are not important issues for some people. Many rich Asian people prefer living in high rises in built-up area than a large house in area with little shopping ,dining and entertainment. Chinese people are known to be noisy with many friends together than appreciating quiet. Life expectancies of Japanese, Singaporeans, and Hong Kongers are higher than most western developed countries. Stress is a issue with city dwellers around the world, and not found only in HK. Crime rates, discrimination or hate are much less on the Western side of the Pacific.

Most people in Northern Europe, Canada, Australia and NZ also do not agree their average person lives much worse than anywhere in the US.

US's social problems are well-known and reguarly broadcasted in the news in Asia and around the world.

Living good or bad differ from person to person. Not really depending on which city or country a person lives.

Back to the Shanghai vs Tokyo topic.

Frankly speaking, Shanghai is a financial hub of the 21st century. It was the only prominent major hub of everything in Asia before World War 2, even Tokyo was not on the same level as Shanghai. It is a financial hub this century, because of the large size of China's economy and international trade, which rival US's and Japan's. If Shanghai is not world's top five, it is still in the top 10 hubs. Similarly Tokyo is important because of the size of Japan's economy, second in the world for a long time before being overtaken by China. Singapore's financial market is very small in comparsion to others. Hong Kong is the most international economy because of its autonomy SAR status, policies which welcome international capital and goods, highly developed commerical laws based on English laws and the wide use of English in business.

Shanghai is a global city, there are as many international flights and destinations as Tokyo's Airports and HK's. The average income of a worker and costs are lower than LA , NYC and Tokyo as China is a developing country. This is easy to understand. It is just that most people from developed country do not consider Shanghai as developed as their country. Shanghai, Mumbai, Brazil, Mexico and Russia are still developing financial markets. Their systems, regulations and policies are not as international as developed markets. They lack the experience developed markets have.

Mexico city was or is indeed richer than Shanghai. Argentina, Russia, Mexico and Brazil are major developing countries with higher per capita wealth than China. All except Russia opened up much earlier than China.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
Hong Kong is a huge financial hub yet the average person lives much worse than anywhere in the U.S.

And Shanghai isn't a major financial hub anyways. I can easily name 10-15 cities that are more important financial centers. In Asia alone, HK, Singapore and Tokyo are all more important.


No, you need to "deal with it". You are linking to a website you don't even understand. The Global City rankings has nothing to do with a city's relative wealth or importance. It's ranking cities by global interconnectivity.


I don't think this is true. In any case, Mexico City is richer than Shanghai. "Influential" is completely subjective, wealth isn't.

Last edited by lokeung); 04-20-2015 at 07:55 AM..
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:25 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,253,275 times
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^^

well said.

Worth noting that many people don't seem to know that Shanghai is not a new-rich city that just grew out of nowhere since the 1980s.

Shanghai was a very prosperous city even back in the 1920/30, once called the Paris of the East. Shanghai was the largest and most prosperous and most cosmopolitan city in East Asia, the center is the Far East in the 1930s, not Tokyo. Hong Kong was looked down upon in those days as a backwater small town.

It declined rapidly due to the external and internal wars in the 1930/1940s, and further due to gross mismanagement of the Chinese economy after the CPP came into power, and it was not until 1990s that the economic growth once again became the focus of policy.

Like someone correctly pointed out, we need to define "surpass" first. It won't take long to surpass Tokyo in terms of sheer size (actually if you do visit or live in either, you won't find Shanghai smaller), or even economic importance, but for Shanghai to replace Tokyo overall, it may take sometime.
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Old 04-20-2015, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Singapore
653 posts, read 539,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
^^

well said.

Worth noting that many people don't seem to know that Shanghai is not a new-rich city that just grew out of nowhere since the 1980s.

Shanghai was a very prosperous city even back in the 1920/30, once called the Paris of the East. Shanghai was the largest and most prosperous and most cosmopolitan city in East Asia, the center is the Far East in the 1930s, not Tokyo. Hong Kong was looked down upon in those days as a backwater small town.

It declined rapidly due to the external and internal wars in the 1930/1940s, and further due to gross mismanagement of the Chinese economy after the CPP came into power, and it was not until 1990s that the economic growth once again became the focus of policy.

Like someone correctly pointed out, we need to define "surpass" first. It won't take long to surpass Tokyo in terms of sheer size (actually if you do visit or live in either, you won't find Shanghai smaller), or even economic importance, but for Shanghai to replace Tokyo overall, it may take sometime.
I personally think if we just look at in terms of sheer size, Shanghai has already virtually surpassed every other single city on earth, if we just look at just the urbanization rate or the land surface area alone.

Similarly, if we look at purely in economic terms and trade flow alone, Shanghai has surpassed every other single city, especially Tokyo, but not New York and London.

More trade already flow in and out of Shanghai than Hong Kong or Tokyo.

As a trading city, Shanghai is easily in the top 4 in the world, alongside New York, London and Tokyo.

However, as far as banking and finance goes, it may take another 50 years.

Thousands of global MNCs are already doing trade finance in Shanghai, for products being shipped in and out of China.

But to be a banking and finance hub, it goes beyond that; everybody, local China citizen or foreigner, must feel safe putting money in that location. An investor needs to feel safe that if he opens a $20 million dollar account in a private bank in Shanghai, 5 years later, he can still pull that money out. But right now, for purposes such as that, Hong Kong still has the advantage.
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Old 04-20-2015, 12:12 PM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,253,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerbalm1985 View Post

However, as far as banking and finance goes, it may take another 50 years.

Thousands of global MNCs are already doing trade finance in Shanghai, for products being shipped in and out of China.

But to be a banking and finance hub, it goes beyond that; everybody, local China citizen or foreigner, must feel safe putting money in that location. An investor needs to feel safe that if he opens a $20 million dollar account in a private bank in Shanghai, 5 years later, he can still pull that money out. But right now, for purposes such as that, Hong Kong still has the advantage.
Agree. And it is Shanghai's issue, more of China's.

China's financial market is still in this early development stage and is not nearly as deep or sophisticated as real financial centers such as London or Hong Kong, or even Chicago. The Shanghai stock exchange was founded only 25 years ago and is still largely not open to international investors. China's currency is still largely controlled by the government, and its bond market is still quite small and under developed. Derivatives, commodities etc. are not quite there yet.

It really depends on how fast China wants to reform. It could be very fast or it might take 30 years, no one knows. And you are absolutely right that China is still largely perceived as a risky market and investors are probably more willing to put money elsewhere then a Chinese bank. Only time will be able to increase that kind of market confidence.
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Old 04-23-2015, 11:59 AM
 
1,011 posts, read 627,651 times
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Why do people even compare Shanghai to Mexico City? Shanghai is 10 times more modern than Mexico city, and 10 times more important in the world stage than Mexico city.

Compare Shanghai to Tokyo, for now, they are on par, in my opinion. They are comparable in terms of trade, population, and modernness. For example, air passenger traffic, metro ridership are comparable for the two cities (both of them are easily within the top 5 in the world). Shanghai has lower income per capita, but much higher growth potential than Tokyo.

Also, HK and Singapore are way overrated. They are just island economy serving as a gateway to the huge chinese economy. As RMB becomes more and more international, their status will inevitably decline. One example is that there are virtually no world famous international company headquartered in HK or Singapore. most multinationals are simply having a branch there.
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