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Old 02-21-2014, 03:03 PM
 
Location: NYC
12,888 posts, read 8,725,709 times
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Don't really care about Tibet because what China is doing there isn't right but what is right? It is a form of ethnic cleansing but what is Tibet's contribution to that region? Japan invaded China when it was weak now they are afraid and cowers to the US.

One day if China ever invades Japan is because the US no longer has a military superiority. It might happen soon as the US keeps cutting military budget and runs military posts in every continent while China doesn't need to.
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Fort Collins, USA
1,470 posts, read 2,366,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Yes, on party totalitarian state, so what? Is it necessarily worse than "democracy" where politicians care more about winning the next election than building cities and countries? There is nothing intrisically wrong with totalitarism. Democracy works for some countries, great, but don't make it some sort of universal value as if a country must be doing it wrong if it doesn't have two more more parties. Let me ask this: do you really think either the democrats or the republicans doing much a favor for the American people? How much do average Americans trust these two parties and the political system?

There are pros and cons with both democracy and totalitarism and I will never conclude one is just superior to the other. There comes benefits and huge costs for both, in different ways, and countries should just seek the best system with the goal of improving the quality of life of its citizens, instead of holding some stubborn view that only democracy and multi-party system should be allowed.

In practice, I'd rather be in a totalitarian country like China than in a democratic one like India or Bangedesh where you can vote and publicly accuse the government. I am fine with not having those "rights", thank you very much, as long as roads are properly built, hospitals are improved, schools are made better for the kids and subways are constructed making commuting easier each day.
You don't post like somebody who lives in a totalitarian society so I'm guessing that your advocacy of that type of system is of the armchair variety. Democracy has it's faults but even at it's worst, it's far better than living in a country where the government can do anything it wants to any of it's citizens at any time without repercussions. You make it sound like it's merely a case of government gently rebuking you if you step out of line. If you believe that then I don't think you've been paying much attention to how these types of governments truly deal with dissidents (or non-dissidents, it really doesn't matter because in that type of system the authorities are always right).

Last edited by xeric; 02-21-2014 at 07:34 PM..
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Old 02-22-2014, 03:56 AM
 
4,674 posts, read 3,607,316 times
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What a stupid question.....A country that is rising in power should incite fear and worry, at the very least to some degree, in all of its neighbors. If it did not, then it's truly a neutered country.

Given China's recent past history of humiliation at the hands of the west, and now the ex-colonies of the west holding onto their gains, it make sense that China would challenge these losses and right historical wrongs. China will grow even stronger, and until these countries start to negotiat with China to resolve these issues in good faith, they will get the short end of the stick.

The US is rapidly moving into default, and it really wants these countries to worry about China and spend lots of money to buy American weapons. But the US does not want to fight China directly on these little countries' behalf, Japan included. This is why the US is egging these countries on to "stand up" to China, but it needs to be careful not to embolden them so much that they do something which would ignite a real Chinese response. If that happens, the US will be forced to either live up to its words and fight China directly, or look like a paper tiger. The US is in no economic condition to fight a limited war with China and hope to win outright. China, once in a direct war with the US, cannot afford to lose. Both are nuclear armed...so you can do the math. Hence, the Chinese are trying to correct historical wrong, the US is trying to hold onto its premier position by using its little proxies, and these little proxies are stuck in the middle. They will be the first ones to be decimated because the Chinese will first try to finish them off before it is forced to attack American assets...unless the US first attack Chinese assets directly.

One way or another, little countries like the pinoys and the japanese do not stand a chance. They are war fodders between the US and China. Let's hope all this do not come to past. The US need to make room for China in the Asian theater like a sensible power.
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Old 02-22-2014, 07:26 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,250,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
What a stupid question.....A country that is rising in power should incite fear and worry, at the very least to some degree, in all of its neighbors. If it did not, then it's truly a neutered country.

Given China's recent past history of humiliation at the hands of the west, and now the ex-colonies of the west holding onto their gains, it make sense that China would challenge these losses and right historical wrongs. China will grow even stronger, and until these countries start to negotiat with China to resolve these issues in good faith, they will get the short end of the stick.

The US is rapidly moving into default, and it really wants these countries to worry about China and spend lots of money to buy American weapons. But the US does not want to fight China directly on these little countries' behalf, Japan included. This is why the US is egging these countries on to "stand up" to China, but it needs to be careful not to embolden them so much that they do something which would ignite a real Chinese response. If that happens, the US will be forced to either live up to its words and fight China directly, or look like a paper tiger. The US is in no economic condition to fight a limited war with China and hope to win outright. China, once in a direct war with the US, cannot afford to lose. Both are nuclear armed...so you can do the math. Hence, the Chinese are trying to correct historical wrong, the US is trying to hold onto its premier position by using its little proxies, and these little proxies are stuck in the middle. They will be the first ones to be decimated because the Chinese will first try to finish them off before it is forced to attack American assets...unless the US first attack Chinese assets directly.

One way or another, little countries like the pinoys and the japanese do not stand a chance. They are war fodders between the US and China. Let's hope all this do not come to past. The US need to make room for China in the Asian theater like a sensible power.
excellent analysis
China haters always talk ill about China because of one fact: they want the US and its tool countries to be dominant in the world forever and like you said "hold on to their gains" from past wars at the expense of countries like China.

There is no such thing as "peaceful rising". The UK didn't. Japan and Germany didn't. Nor did the US.
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Old 02-22-2014, 10:01 AM
 
1,846 posts, read 1,675,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
excellent analysis
China haters always talk ill about China because of one fact: they want the US and its tool countries to be dominant in the world forever and like you said "hold on to their gains" from past wars at the expense of countries like China.

There is no such thing as "peaceful rising". The UK didn't. Japan and Germany didn't. Nor did the US.
That's because American's tend to have a 10 year span of history and before that they don't have a clue.

Especially this newer generation coming up they have no idea what was going on in the world before 9/11.
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Old 02-24-2014, 02:46 AM
 
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Jesus, look at these Chinese acting all haughty, even though they would be nothing without the world spoonfeeding them with our money. Hey guys, STOP BUYING CHINESE PRODUCTS. You are literally subsidizing them, so that they can eventually take over your country. Cripple their economy, cripple their nuclear capability, starve their people and see if they can keep acting so haughty.

China is not communist, they are a dictatorship, that is a big distinction. They are a dangerous threat that must be stopped!
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Old 02-24-2014, 07:29 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,250,780 times
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Originally Posted by gamer612 View Post
Jesus, look at these Chinese acting all haughty, even though they would be nothing without the world spoonfeeding them with our money. Hey guys, STOP BUYING CHINESE PRODUCTS. You are literally subsidizing them, so that they can eventually take over your country. Cripple their economy, cripple their nuclear capability, starve their people and see if they can keep acting so haughty.

China is not communist, they are a dictatorship, that is a big distinction. They are a dangerous threat that must be stopped!
Why would the UK, France, Spain be without robbing, killing and pillaging asian, african and latin american countries in the past? their current wealth is largely a result of such atrocities during their inital stages of capitalism, in case you forget, and all of a sudden they put on a nice suit and pretend they are gentlemen even starting preaching others about human rights?

and with respect to the US, it never ceased to suck wealth from around the world thanks to its reserve currency status. thousands of african children died of hunger because the Feds' insatiable appetite for QE. it meddles with internal affairs of everg single country in the world making sure the US will maintain its power at the expense of the citizens of other countries, often in the disguise of protecting their "freedom" - yeah, I am sure all the Iraqis are enjoying their newly gain freedom right now and a much improved standard of living. The current crisis at Ukraine is largely related to Washington's intereference and support (of the rebellions) as well, because it simly can't keep its hands off other countries.

as to cheap products and labour from china, isn't it largely due to cost is too high in western countries and their companies are outscourcing to save every penny? the US borrows billions of dollars each year from china as treasure notes, and I am not sure who is subsidizing whom. if not for the cheap chinese products, the US inflation rate would have been through the roof and current middle class wouldn't be able to enjoy their high spending power. yea, stop buying chinese products, good luck with that. let the union workers who charge $40 an hour plus all the benefits and entitlement to make pants and plastic containers. I am sure middle class quality of life will improve dramatically.
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:37 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,347,718 times
Reputation: 11309
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
What a stupid question.....A country that is rising in power should incite fear and worry, at the very least to some degree, in all of its neighbors. If it did not, then it's truly a neutered country.

Given China's recent past history of humiliation at the hands of the west, and now the ex-colonies of the west holding onto their gains, it make sense that China would challenge these losses and right historical wrongs. China will grow even stronger, and until these countries start to negotiat with China to resolve these issues in good faith, they will get the short end of the stick.

The US is rapidly moving into default, and it really wants these countries to worry about China and spend lots of money to buy American weapons. But the US does not want to fight China directly on these little countries' behalf, Japan included. This is why the US is egging these countries on to "stand up" to China, but it needs to be careful not to embolden them so much that they do something which would ignite a real Chinese response. If that happens, the US will be forced to either live up to its words and fight China directly, or look like a paper tiger. The US is in no economic condition to fight a limited war with China and hope to win outright. China, once in a direct war with the US, cannot afford to lose. Both are nuclear armed...so you can do the math. Hence, the Chinese are trying to correct historical wrong, the US is trying to hold onto its premier position by using its little proxies, and these little proxies are stuck in the middle. They will be the first ones to be decimated because the Chinese will first try to finish them off before it is forced to attack American assets...unless the US first attack Chinese assets directly.

One way or another, little countries like the pinoys and the japanese do not stand a chance. They are war fodders between the US and China. Let's hope all this do not come to past. The US need to make room for China in the Asian theater like a sensible power.
The chances of a war happening between the US and China, either directly or through proxies, is ridiculously slim. The US is trying to hold onto its influence and power in the region, while China is trying to gain power, or in some cases, regain what was lost over the last couple centuries... and both are trying to do this without stepping on eachothers' toes. Both nations are, in many ways, trying to learn to share a stage with one another in the theater. They do cooperate where their interests coincide, and they tend to err on the side of restraint where their interests conflict.

In the event that any of the US' smaller allies in the region did want to lash out at China, the US would muzzle them. The US has nothing to gain by the region descending into chaos: the US Gov't has no desire to engage in a direct war with it's #1 trade partner, regardless of what its chickenhawks and talking heads want to blather on about for their own ego. It also has no desire to see its allies in the region go to war with China, because there is basically no way they can possibly win even with US weaponry behind them. As you noted, the US would then be in a situation in which they let their allies get stuffed (not so wild an idea, considering how they've treated many of their friends over the last 60 or so years) and lose that ally, lose the power and influence they may have had, and lose face and reputation in the process; or, they jump into a war that would not only be very costly and very bloody, but would face little support at home and also further damage their economy.

Chinese nationalists will talk about "righting humiliation" and things like that, as though this is the driving force behind the Chinese government's actions... it's not, and this is a naive and juvenile way of looking at things. Cooler heads tend to prevail in positions of power, and even if there's no love lost between Chinese leaders and the Japanese, or the Filipinos, or the Vietnamese, or whomever else they are having a dispute with, at the same time they are more than well aware of the backbone of China's rise: trade. If they were to start a conflict with a neighbor, it would hurt their trade, and if it hurts their trade, it hurts their economy. It's not as romantic as the idea of a country rising to power and righting those historical wrongs, but it's the real, pragmatic truth behind China's restraint. Even in the extremely minute chance that one of these smaller nations attacked China, from what I know of the Chinese military and its philosophies, they would most likely work quickly to neutralize that nation's military infrastructure - ships, aircraft, bases, etc - and restrain itself from wreaking utter destruction on that nation as a whole to see how they responded to the Chinese counterattack. The shorter, quicker, and more limited the battle, the better for their bottom line. An all-out war for territory would funnel money from their growth and stifle their trade as it isolated them from the rest of the world, all the same that it would for the US.

While a bunch of armchair warriors on the internet puff out their chests about China fighting back against their historical oppressors and warn them of their coming punishment, the actual powers-that-be in China are engaged in trade talks with those very nations, and China profits from it every day. For them to suddenly do an about-face and engage in foreign policy based on historical grievances when they're already in the midst of one of the most remarkable examples of growth and modernization in history would be utter idiocy, and will not happen. The main driving force behind the Senkaku/Dokdo dispute, and those of China with various other shoals and reefs around Asia, are the resources they provide, whether those are fuels, minerals, or simply lanes for trade and export. Plain and simple. The talk about historical dynasties and claims due to those locations being mentioned in centuries-old poems and the like are, again, parts of a romantic telling of a culture and its people meant instill pride, all the same that the Americans talk of the Minutemen or the Japanese invoke the spirit of samurai when they're dealing with current issues.
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:01 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,250,780 times
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Yes, I doubt the Chinese government has any appetite for "revenge" or expanding its territory, which is meaningless unless there are important resources involved. No matter what the extreme nationalists advocate, China will not initiate any wars on its neighbours (it seldom did in history) and will always seek to grow its economy as the first priority. The past few generations of chinese leaders are very pragmatic. They care a lot more about economic growth and improvement of living standards than regional power, although when vexed, they will show their teeth from time to time. They learned the lesson from history that you will always be bullied if you are not economically independent and powerful enough.

The US will have no choice but to retreat gradually from East Asia and give China its space. Declining economic power (from 35% to 21% and possibly to 15% in a decade) leads to declining political influence, and there is no way to avoid that. You simply can't be the master behind any scene on the world political stage with that little market share.
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,347,718 times
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Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Yes, I doubt the Chinese government has any appetite for "revenge" or expanding its territory, which is meaningless unless there are important resources involved. No matter what the extreme nationalists advocate, China will not initiate any wars on its neighbours (it seldom did in history) and will always seek to grow its economy as the first priority. The past few generations of chinese leaders are very pragmatic. They care a lot more about economic growth and improvement of living standards than regional power, although when vexed, they will show their teeth from time to time. They learned the lesson from history that you will always be bullied if you are not economically independent and powerful enough.
One of China's distinct advantages over the US, at least in this discussion, is its party system.

The US' republic has become its own worst enemy as it's essentially split into two factions whose platforms are ultimately fairly similar... they just go about them in different ways: one offers concessions to the masses, while the other dictates that there should be no concessions and that whoever falls by the wayside, falls by the wayside. At the end of the day, both have the ultimate goal of preserving an elite status quo, they just have different approaches about how to maintain it. These two factions are so intensely at odds over their approaches, that progress in the US has been stifled.

Though basically everyone in the US wants the same thing - a powerful economy and growth with a stable backbone - the political rhetoric in the US has gotten to the point where it's obscured this reality that everyone has the same goal and as such, it's effectively in a position of stasis, with a flat-if-not-declining middle class that has less and less money to put back into what could be a booming economy.

China has a one-party system who effectively decides what the status quo is. The Red Guard-era radicalism has given way to the current pragmatism; starting in the late 70's, in the wake of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, China began looking outside its borders at the rest of the world. One of their greatest points of interest was the US: a young, upstart nation that surged from a recently-unified, regionally-fragmented place whose industrial might was stifled by its social problems, but eventually became one of the most wealthy, influential, and powerful nations in human history. One of the things they took note of was the strength of the American middle class; how the US took the wave of patriotism that saw it through the Second World War, and diverted that energy to its economy, allows its citizens to reap the fruits of their labors, and that this made it strong. China is in a position where it could allow this to happen when it decided that the time was right, and it did.

The US, as a young nation with a highly-fragmented political system, is stuck in a cycle of thinking in blocks of four years; the minimum time frame for the start and stop of a presidential administration. You set a plan for four years, with a possible further four-year plan after that, and anything further is just speculation. The goal is to get as much of the party's business done in those four year blocks as possible, because you're only guaranteed that amount of time after you're elected.

China's political party has been in office for nearly 70 years, and it's not going anywhere. They have the luxury, and the power, to think in much larger blocks of time. This whole surge of growth has basically been four decades of planning coming to fruition: an inconceivable amount of time for the US but what Chinese leadership deemed was necessary for its success.

Quote:
The US will have no choice but to retreat gradually from East Asia and give China its space. Declining economic power (from 35% to 21% and possibly to 15% in a decade) leads to declining political influence, and there is no way to avoid that. You simply can't be the master behind any scene on the world political stage with that little market share.
The US just plain isn't in Asia in terms of its geography, and we live in a post-colonial world in which it's not practical to try to maintain an empire, whether that's a traditional one, or it's composed of proxies. The US has ignored its problems at home for far too long, and now it's at a point where it is gradually losing the means with which it formerly held onto influence. I do think that at some point, the US will likely stabilize; whether it literally "turns around" is another matter entirely.
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