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Old 09-23-2015, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,357,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
That's right! A nationalistic American is a true "patriot", while a nationalistic Chinese is a brainwashed loser who can't think for him/herself.....yeah right.
There is a pretty big difference between national pride, and nationalism.

You can be proud to be an American or Chinese or whateCer, but not necessarily believe that your country or its culture are "the best" and feel that the actions of its government or citizens is beyond reproach or take precedent over those of the rest of the world.
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Old 09-24-2015, 10:28 AM
 
542 posts, read 489,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by softmoc View Post
only Americans, Japanese, Germans think their country or their culture is "the best".
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Old 09-24-2015, 03:41 PM
 
4,685 posts, read 3,614,137 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Who Dat View Post
Well, the truth is that I don't see the Chinese historically carrying out missionary work, or trying to remake others in their image through colonialism. They just thin of themselves as the central kingdom and expect others to come and pay homage. But plenty of Europeans and Americans tried to do so to others through colonialism and conquest.
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Old 09-24-2015, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,357,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by softmoc View Post
typical China apartment life
Typical in the CBD of one of the major cities... that apartment probably costs 4 or 5 times what the average Chinese person makes per month, and is also quite large (I'd guess 200sq/m).

We've got a 75 sq/m 3 bedroom in Liede, part of GZ's CBD, for 5500RMB/mo which is a pretty good deal. It's only about four years old and in a nice village/garden. The restaurant we just opened is in another part of the CBD in an older village; we are considering moving closer, but don't really want to move into an older apartment.

In our area, just like in Western cities, developers going off of speculation keep building fancier and more expensive apartment towers, and because of China's current economic slowdown, a lot of those buildings are and have been vacant for some time.
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Old 09-28-2017, 01:16 PM
 
482 posts, read 251,301 times
Reputation: 1196
Here's a neat video about China's economic rise, with a seeming focus on the particular success of electronics manufacturing in Shenzhen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7Jfrzkmzyc

I'm a strong supporter of China's rise, for many reasons. I believe China gets unfairly demonized for being "communist". As far as I can tell, politically China is more so an authoritarian/one-party system where the party in power is "communist" in name only. And economically, at least within their Special Economic Zones, they're blatantly capitalist.

The video does mention China's currency manipulation, as does the video below. I have a question about this: what exactly is so evil about it? It does not seem to be illegal, nor does it seem other countries are prevented from doing the exact same thing, which would potentially negate China's currency "advantage". Am I missing something?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy1V7tWpTGY
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Old 09-28-2017, 01:55 PM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,262,981 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallasgoldrush View Post
I'm a strong supporter of China's rise, for many reasons. I believe China gets unfairly demonized for being "communist". As far as I can tell, politically China is more so an authoritarian/one-party system where the party in power is "communist" in name only. And economically, at least within their Special Economic Zones, they're blatantly capitalist.

The video does mention China's currency manipulation, as does the video below. I have a question about this: what exactly is so evil about it? It does not seem to be illegal, nor does it seem other countries are prevented from doing the exact same thing, which would potentially negate China's currency "advantage". Am I missing something?
China's one party-system does not mean it is a dictatorship. Westerners are stuck with the idea that if you are not a multi-party system, then you are evil, which I find to be laughable. Why are countries allowed to operated in one and only one way? There is no evidence that shows democracy helps prosperity (so many poor democratic countries. India being one) or prevents irrational actions (Hilter), yet they insist it is the only solution.

China's top leaders, although not democratically elected, are all with years of working experience and subject to substantial training and on-the-job testing. They are start with lower end government jobs and move up gradually, until approved by the top guys. Therefore, no one can suddenly become a standing committee member, mayor, or president just because he is particularly good at talking. Obama, Trump, Macron, all these politicians with limited or no political experience will never happen in China. Within the party itself, there is a lot of in-fighting between various faction. It is not like that the CPP is a bunch of old guys with exactly the same thought.

Both systems have pros and cons and China is trying a different way, and at least since the 1980s, it has been working. So if it is not broken, why fix it? We all can see that there is a lot more policy consistency in China compared with the US, where president change every 4 or 8 years. China is able to plan for 20 or 30 years ahead and can do things far more efficiently. I am not saying it is a superior system, but let China find its own way, instead of insisting democracy is the only way, otherwise you are seen with hostility. More important, the Chinese people do not care about democracy. There are very few Chinese who really aspire a multi-party western system, because things are fine as they see it. There is no guarantee a democracy will make their life better, is there?

Regarding currency "manipulation", seriously based on what? China's trade surprise as % of GDP is much lower than Germany, Singapore and a lot of other countries for example. China is also running a trade deficit with Germany, Japan, Taiwan, plus a whole lot of countries. It only runs a giant surplus with the USA, so by reasonable logic, why is it not US's problem, rather than China's problem, in that the US is buying too much from China? Since apparently no other country has the same issue! The US is unreasonable because it is say "I don't care about other country's surplus such as Germany or Japan. I don't care China has a deficit with all these countries. As long as it has a huge surplus with me, it is YOUR FAULT, and China is manipulating the currency"! This is the typical American thinking.

Additionally, what's currency manipulation? Because a country does not allow its currency to float? If so, there are many countries which do the same. Switzerland pegs its currency to the Euro, HK dollar pegs to USD, all they all manipulating?? Plus, what's wrong with appreciating or depreciating one's currency? Most large countries have done it and are still doing it. The US through printing USD has been doing it for decades, is it not manipulating?

The US threatened to call China a currency manipulator for years, since the Clinton era, yet it is always just words and never action, why? Because they know it is BS and they are just using it as leverage to get something else.
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:02 PM
 
482 posts, read 251,301 times
Reputation: 1196
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
China's one party-system does not mean it is a dictatorship. Westerners are stuck with the idea that if you are not a multi-party system, then you are evil, which I find to be laughable. Why are countries allowed to operated in one and only one way? There is no evidence that shows democracy helps prosperity (so many poor democratic countries. India being one) or prevents irrational actions (Hilter), yet they insist it is the only solution.

China's top leaders, although not democratically elected, are all with years of working experience and subject to substantial training and on-the-job testing. They are start with lower end government jobs and move up gradually, until approved by the top guys. Therefore, no one can suddenly become a standing committee member, mayor, or president just because he is particularly good at talking. Obama, Trump, Macron, all these politicians with limited or no political experience will never happen in China. Within the party itself, there is a lot of in-fighting between various faction. It is not like that the CPP is a bunch of old guys with exactly the same thought.

Both systems have pros and cons and China is trying a different way, and at least since the 1980s, it has been working. So if it is not broken, why fix it? We all can see that there is a lot more policy consistency in China compared with the US, where president change every 4 or 8 years. China is able to plan for 20 or 30 years ahead and can do things far more efficiently. I am not saying it is a superior system, but let China find its own way, instead of insisting democracy is the only way, otherwise you are seen with hostility. More important, the Chinese people do not care about democracy. There are very few Chinese who really aspire a multi-party western system, because things are fine as they see it. There is no guarantee a democracy will make their life better, is there?
When I stated China is politically one-party/authoritarian (authoritarian in my mind only meaning there's no viable opposition party), it was not a criticism, but an observation indicating there are technically differences from the general Western assumption of "communism" being China's overall focus.

I agree with you that multi-party (seemingly) democratic systems are overrated in the sense that they are far from the only effective forms of government. In fact, they have specific weaknesses that are not present in other forms of government, particularly related to "policy consistency" over time, as you mentioned.

In other words, quite frankly we Americans are wrong that government gridlock is some advanced way to govern. Gridlock just means we get fewer things done, and I personally believe it will lead to the gradual decline of America's relative economic power and influence over time.
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Old 09-28-2017, 07:45 PM
 
2,777 posts, read 1,015,071 times
Reputation: 1770
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallasgoldrush View Post
When I stated China is politically one-party/authoritarian (authoritarian in my mind only meaning there's no viable opposition party), it was not a criticism, but an observation indicating there are technically differences from the general Western assumption of "communism" being China's overall focus.
It can be both an observation and a criticism. China is communist only to the extent that the party that runs the country is the CCP, but its policies are capitalistic in that it follows that model. However, the level of authority the government has over the market and functioning of the country at large are relics of the socialist era.

Quote:
I agree with you that multi-party (seemingly) democratic systems are overrated in the sense that they are far from the only effective forms of government. In fact, they have specific weaknesses that are not present in other forms of government, particularly related to "policy consistency" over time, as you mentioned.

In other words, quite frankly we Americans are wrong that government gridlock is some advanced way to govern. Gridlock just means we get fewer things done, and I personally believe it will lead to the gradual decline of America's relative economic power and influence over time.
They are not so much overrated as poorly implemented. There is no logical reason why a country needs to be under a one party system in order to develop, thatís just an excuse to maintain the status quo. The reason why you get so many gridlocks in democracy is because there is an attempt at undermining what your opposition does. If people wanted to improve upon things, those issues could easily be avoided.

Botticelli says that most Chinese donít care about democracy and that is likely true, but people only care about what impacts them directly. Iím a heterosexual male so technically speaking LGBT rights have zero effect on my life, but that doesnít mean that for those who fall under that umbrella those issues are not at the forefront.

Of course the other problem with democracy is that for it to be truly successful it would require a larger participation from the community in influencing the decision making process (a representative democracy). As it stands in most democracies we elect parties on the promises they make, but they hold power over the legislation and execution of policies, therefore are free to break from their promises at any point.

Many democratic countries fail at being full democracies but the system shouldnít be broken, it needs to evolve. Having a one party/authoritarian regime removes the chance of engaging in dialogue.

Even Botticelli despite being a strong advocate for the CCPís policies lives in Canada and France, therefore even he on at least a subconscious level understands the merits of those countries, not to mention supports policies that align with democratic institutions such as LGBT rights, removal of censorship, legalisation of weed...
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:43 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,262,981 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
Even Botticelli despite being a strong advocate for the CCP’s policies lives in Canada and France, therefore even he on at least a subconscious level understands the merits of those countries, not to mention supports policies that align with democratic institutions such as LGBT rights, removal of censorship, legalisation of weed...
No. I live in western countries because quality of life is better (although the gap is closing RAPIDLY). However, you are assuming the higher quality of life is a result of democracy, which is entirely wrong. That is a mistake many westerners make - they think their good life is due to a democratic system.

However, I do support LGBT rights, removal of censorship and a lot of progressive things, but these are not completely incompatible with one-party systems. The CCP has no reason not to support LGBT rights, and can give the people a lot more freedom in terms of speech and the press (at least to a certain degree. Actually things were improving before Xi came into power). They are just too scared to.

additionally it is not accurate to say I am a strong advocate for the CCP policies. I support some but not others. For example, arresting human rights lawyers is BS. Banning google is completely nuts. And the government should spend A LOT MORE on healthcare and education because it is sad to see people who can afford to go to hospitals and school. It has the money to. All I am saying is that the current policy and political system is working relatively well in rapidly improving people's lives, and there is no reason to transition into a democratic system, rather if so, the country will slip into chaos and the growth may end, and people will suffer. But western people don't care. It is not their life. They care more about labels: as long as you are "democratic", it is all good.

If China were under a western style democracy, it wouldn't have built the world's longest high speed rail system in a matter of 10 years. It would take 100 years. A single subway line in Shanghai would take 10-15 years to build, instead of 3-4 years. This is what I have learned from living in Canada. You might say there are more important things than these projects, but no, for China, these are more important than LGBT rights or smoking weed, or "depression" or whatever liberal ideas. Democracy for China now? sounds nice, but no thank you. You guys can keep it and keep pretending it is the best thing to have. Most Chinese do not want or need it, at least for now.
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Old 09-29-2017, 06:45 PM
 
2,777 posts, read 1,015,071 times
Reputation: 1770
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
No. I live in western countries because quality of life is better (although the gap is closing RAPIDLY). However, you are assuming the higher quality of life is a result of democracy, which is entirely wrong. That is a mistake many westerners make - they think their good life is due to a democratic system.

However, I do support LGBT rights, removal of censorship and a lot of progressive things, but these are not completely incompatible with one-party systems. The CCP has no reason not to support LGBT rights, and can give the people a lot more freedom in terms of speech and the press (at least to a certain degree. Actually things were improving before Xi came into power). They are just too scared to.

additionally it is not accurate to say I am a strong advocate for the CCP policies. I support some but not others. For example, arresting human rights lawyers is BS. Banning google is completely nuts. And the government should spend A LOT MORE on healthcare and education because it is sad to see people who can afford to go to hospitals and school. It has the money to. All I am saying is that the current policy and political system is working relatively well in rapidly improving people's lives, and there is no reason to transition into a democratic system, rather if so, the country will slip into chaos and the growth may end, and people will suffer. But western people don't care. It is not their life. They care more about labels: as long as you are "democratic", it is all good.

If China were under a western style democracy, it wouldn't have built the world's longest high speed rail system in a matter of 10 years. It would take 100 years. A single subway line in Shanghai would take 10-15 years to build, instead of 3-4 years. This is what I have learned from living in Canada. You might say there are more important things than these projects, but no, for China, these are more important than LGBT rights or smoking weed, or "depression" or whatever liberal ideas. Democracy for China now? sounds nice, but no thank you. You guys can keep it and keep pretending it is the best thing to have. Most Chinese do not want or need it, at least for now.
I understand that China developed rapidly due to the CCPís policies, but I fail to see why that is impossible to achieve in a democracy. The problem with western democracies is that there are too many parties that try to undermine what the previous did. As long as that mentality prevails, gridlocks will continue to persist. However, if we get to a stage where parties are willing to engage one another for the betterment of society then many of those problems will be alleviated. Itís not democracy thatís the problem, itís human stupidity.

Take India, which you mentioned earlier on, its biggest problem is the prevalence of the caste system and gender stereotypes that plague Indian society, but those are cultural relics that survive to this day and are seperate from democracy itself. India is held back by tradition, not democracy.

The problem with a one party system is that any of those policies like LGBT rights will only come into effect if the party decides they are worth legalizing. Like I said earlier, LGBT rights donít affect me on a personal level, but to those who fall under it, it is a matter of livelihood. Thatís not the only case obviously, the right to practice any religion is another issue as are the options of freedom of expression/censorship. Of course this isnít targeted at China specifically as these are problems that still persist in the world, even in the most progressive countries.
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