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Old 09-30-2017, 01:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
I understand that China developed rapidly due to the CCPís policies, but I fail to see why that is impossible to achieve in a democracy. The problem with western democracies is that there are too many parties that try to undermine what the previous did. As long as that mentality prevails, gridlocks will continue to persist. However, if we get to a stage where parties are willing to engage one another for the betterment of society then many of those problems will be alleviated. Itís not democracy thatís the problem, itís human stupidity.
No, it is impossible to achieve in a democracy, especially for a country the size of China. You are right human stupidity caused this, but human stupidity won't disappear. Politicians should care about what's best for the country long term, instead of winning how many seats in the next election - these can be very different.

At least for now, democracy is not desirable in China. In the very long term, I highly doubt China will adopt the typical western style democracy. The political system will evolve but it will be something quite different from western countries nevertheless.

I think you are too stubborn like most westerners in thinking democracy is the best available thing and take it as a natural assumption. I simply don't agree with that premise. There can be many ways to govern a country and each country should choose the way that fits (in terms to best improve people's lives). It is wrong to think "someday in the future, China will be a democracy". No, it probably won't. Democracy is NOT the ultimate goal. It is just one of the means to achieve a certain goal, and not necessarily the best one.

Like I said, if democracy works in your country, great, keep it up. Don't try to force it upon others when neither the government nor the people want it.
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Old 09-30-2017, 01:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post

Take India, which you mentioned earlier on, its biggest problem is the prevalence of the caste system and gender stereotypes that plague Indian society, but those are cultural relics that survive to this day and are seperate from democracy itself. India is held back by tradition, not democracy.

The problem with a one party system is that any of those policies like LGBT rights will only come into effect if the party decides they are worth legalizing. Like I said earlier, LGBT rights donít affect me on a personal level, but to those who fall under it, it is a matter of livelihood. Thatís not the only case obviously, the right to practice any religion is another issue as are the options of freedom of expression/censorship. Of course this isnít targeted at China specifically as these are problems that still persist in the world, even in the most progressive countries.
OK, there are reasons for India, what about Brazil? A democracy too, see how it is now. The Philippines? Why do we pretend democracy leads to prosperity? There is no evidence whatsoever.

Democracy's biggest role is supposed to prevent hugely disastrous situation and even in that it fails miserable (Nazi Germany is an example).

Yes, LGBT rights will be improved only if the party decides it. but in a democracy, it will improve ONLY when the voters support it. How is that better? Why do conservative voters get to decide if the gays can get married and enjoy equal rights? Germany and France approved gay marriage very recently.

In the US it was passed only because of a supreme court decision, 7 judges, which is similar to "if the party decides they are worth legalizing", isn't it? If it went through congress, it wouldn't have passed.

Not to mention in many democratic countries such as Japan or S Korea, there is still no equal rights. Gay rights are much worse in democratic India than one-party China.
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Old 09-30-2017, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Earth
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I think full democracy will work just fine in Hong kong. The CCP is scared of democracy in Hong Kong because they know it will spread to rest of China's educated populace especially in their middle class cities. They will lose their tianming or mandate of heaven.

If the economy goes, so will the CCP's mandate.

If the PLA is only 1 million. They cannot control the whole country if the middle class rebels.
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Old 09-30-2017, 05:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dangerous-Boy View Post
I think full democracy will work just fine in Hong kong. The CCP is scared of democracy in Hong Kong because they know it will spread to rest of China's educated populace especially in their middle class cities. They will lose their tianming or mandate of heaven.

If the economy goes, so will the CCP's mandate.

If the PLA is only 1 million. They cannot control the whole country if the middle class rebels.
Middle class in China do not want the government to fail. They don't care about democracy either, although they have other complaints.
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Old 09-30-2017, 07:28 PM
 
2,776 posts, read 1,014,411 times
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Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
OK, there are reasons for India, what about Brazil? A democracy too, see how it is now. The Philippines? Why do we pretend democracy leads to prosperity? There is no evidence whatsoever.

Democracy's biggest role is supposed to prevent hugely disastrous situation and even in that it fails miserable (Nazi Germany is an example).

Yes, LGBT rights will be improved only if the party decides it. but in a democracy, it will improve ONLY when the voters support it. How is that better? Why do conservative voters get to decide if the gays can get married and enjoy equal rights? Germany and France approved gay marriage very recently.

In the US it was passed only because of a supreme court decision, 7 judges, which is similar to "if the party decides they are worth legalizing", isn't it? If it went through congress, it wouldn't have passed.

Not to mention in many democratic countries such as Japan or S Korea, there is still no equal rights. Gay rights are much worse in democratic India than one-party China.
The reason why LGBT rights are worse in India than in China is because of tradition. India has a strong orthodox religious current that is largely absent in China. In fact I would even go as far as to say that the lack of religion has been highly beneficial to Chinaís development as concepts such as gender equality are not nearly as contentious.

Brazil suffers from many of the same problems the US does, but on an even larger scale as there is far too much inequality in the country.

I dislike the liberal/conservative divide or if we want to call it left/right as I think those labels are far too simplistic and ignore the fact that many people dip their toes in both waters. Australia is going through that at the moment, with the YesEquality referendum taking place that will finally legalize same-sex marriage on a national level if it goes through. This is one area where I feel people with conservative values (not quite the same as conservative politically) have no solid platform to stand on, when they cast votes against the LGBT community, because ultimately they are depriving others of enjoying the same liberties they receive at no personal cost to them.
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Middle class in China do not want the government to fail. They don't care about democracy either, although they have other complaints.

that's because the government's current mandate of heaven is keeping the economy growing.
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Old 10-01-2017, 12:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerous-Boy View Post
that's because the government's current mandate of heaven is keeping the economy growing.
Yes, when people feel their life is getting better, they are often satisfied. Also democracy (in terms of politics) has never been a part of Chinese culture.
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Old 10-01-2017, 08:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Yes, when people feel their life is getting better, they are often satisfied. Also democracy (in terms of politics) has never been a part of Chinese culture.

Yeah, people don't really understand Chinese culture. I don't blame them. Chinese culture is all about meritocracy. If it is destroyed, people will be discontent. There will be massive upraising. Meritocracy has been the mandate of heaven since couple thousand years ago. As long as people feel the system is fair, they are content.

In China everyone is given opportunities to succeed in life. You can born poor, but if you study hard and have talents, you can end up as a CEO of a big company or join the politic party and even become the president of China by rising in ranks. Most people in China are entrepreneur. They own multiple forms of business. Many get rich as a result of that. There are some police man I read. He owns a business selling farming tractors in addition to his daily job.

In China even you try hard and fail in life. You are having a very hard time in life. The government will assign you some farmlands in the rural. You can become a farmer. You never will be starving. Not only that, you will receive massive monetary aids each year depending on how many acres you farm. Many college grads can't get jobs in city. They become farmers and grow specialty crops e.g. ginseng, Chinese pears, herbs, etc.. They sell their crops to the stores and people around the country via the Chinese Alibaba online platform. Many of them are millionaires now.

Everyone in China is entitled to have some lands. It is their birth right by the government doctrine or the communist doctrine. Some city folks are sick and tired of city life. They apply to become a farmer. The government often approve their application and send them to some farming district in China. They can grow whatever they want or they can turn their farmland to a resort if the government approve their application.

Last edited by davidmun; 10-01-2017 at 09:08 PM..
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