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Old 03-02-2014, 11:57 AM
 
Location: M I N N E S O T A
14,800 posts, read 17,708,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Traveler View Post
I agree the US & UK need to desperately work on reducing their debt. Regarding China's economy, it is a virtual certainty that China will surpass the USA GDP in the future. But I wouldn't brag about that as the day that China surpasses the USA GDP, china will have finally reached a point where 4 Chinese are as productive as 1 American.

China has a couple of other serious problems including severe pollution that will cause massive health problems and be extremely costly to clean up. And china's 1 child policy will result in unfavorable demographics for business in the future with too many elderly not working.

Please understand that I worked in China for an extended period of time and very much enjoyed my time there and I'm thrilled that China's economy has expanded at a fast pace through the hard work and good decisions of the Chinese. I hope that leaders of both countries will work to better relations between the world's 2 economic superpowers in the future.
Can you be more specific about "near future"? i can't see China getting up to 15 trillion gdp in my lifetime

I can see China getting up to 10 billion dollars, i hope there will be no economic crisis in China. i think the world would be an even greater with multiple Hyperpowers that can maintain a close relationship.

Last edited by iNviNciBL3; 03-02-2014 at 12:20 PM..
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Old 03-02-2014, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Washington State
18,462 posts, read 9,561,235 times
Reputation: 15753
Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
Can you be more specific about "near future"? i can't see China getting up to 15 trillion gdp in my lifetime

I can see China getting up to 10 billion dollars, i hope there will be no economic crisis in China. i think the world would be an even greater with multiple Hyperpowers that can maintain a close relationship.
I actually said China's GDP would pass USA "in the future" and didn't say "near future" because there could be some major jolts that affect that timeframe. If their policies continue to work, they could surpass our GDP in 10 years.

Like you, I support a path of closer relationship and seeking areas to build together than fostering hate and separation by politicians of either country. IMO, the US has been unnecessarily difficult with our foreign policy attitude toward China which has caused them to reciprocate.
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Old 03-04-2014, 07:35 PM
 
5,227 posts, read 2,313,533 times
Reputation: 3667
Chinese concept of how money is used is different from Western concepts: Chinese think about their coming generations, Much of American wants everything now, and our sense of waste is beyond belief.
APPLE continues to prove and rely on the American sense of waste. Every six months people shell out another $400-$500 for a phone, so they can play games.
Every place around the world looks at America as the 'dumping ground' for what they ship here. They can put catchy wrapping, followed by a slick commercial, and Americans will buy it.
Our landfills are packed with this stuff. Go to any city in the USA, and you will see a boom in building of "storage facilities".
We hoard this stuff and then pack it away in storage shed, never to be used again. In some areas, people can't even put a car in their garage, because it is full of stuff, some have backyards so cluttered with things they will never ever use again. We buy cars as if they are 'throw away items", all because of a new paint scheme or some re-shaped plastic. We are in a delusion about "power" we will spend an extra 10-100K Plus for horsepower that can never be utilized, yet we waste a vast amount of gas, simply so the car can make a certain sound of power.

Some people will spend more for a Sofa than the cost of some peoples automobiles. These are things that won't be used, they are simply for other people to look at, and for one to say how much they paid for it.

We look at the many poor areas around the world and view it as fiction, yet we waste more and more. We have become a people who will eat anything, as long as it promoted on TV and we are told celebrities eat it.

We have no sense of tradition, except when it comes to bigotry and racism, then we grab that tradition with a full heart of Enmity.

We are in many ways too haughty, to learn from others around the world. While they build for longevity and stability, our building has become cheap and low grade and we build obsolescence, trying to save a buck.

The current wage in Average America is an insult to the promoted and claimed standard of living. This renders us in many ways to live more poor than people in countries who make much less in actual dollars, then we waste what we make by chasing the illusions, which results to debt. Credit debt is the only means many have the illusion they are doing well. But the slightest bump in unemployment the house of cards crash. We then go into depression because we can't "shop".

America can no longer live on the Post World War II glory days, Our infrastructure is crumbling, and we can't even maintain what the people who came before us built. there are expanding ghetto's in every city across this nation. Old 1930-1940 shacks about to fall, and the track home communities of the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's look worn and tattered with no means to improve it. Vegetation over-growth, trees along streets that no longer are trimmed, and leaves and debris clutter the areas along the curbs.
but we are blind to it, as long as we can go on facebook, twitter and buy a new phone very 6 months. We will waste vast sums of money on anything with a Foreign Name on it, all the while it made in the same factors that make the 'no name" items, out of the same materials. But we are overly proud to claim we have something with a French Designers Name on it.
All the while the Asian Nations sell the same polo shirts and other items on the streets and in their shops for $5-$8, and we go to a big name store in our cities and shell out $65 upwards for the exact same thing.

Sadly, when foreigners move here, they get caught up in the same mentality, and quickly forget the frugality they were raised to regard.

As to education: American's grow up as free thinkers, so they think in innovation terms, not Rote Memorization's for the sake of Test Taking. We sorely mis-understand the elements of knowledge and functional use of it.
American's have no interest in "Rote Memorization", We are a cultures that seeks, to know the WHO, WHAT, WHY WHEN AND WERE, then we want to know the HOW TO.
Rote Memorization's is concerned with Rote Memory for the sake of Testing Scores. We do our American Kids an Injustice by trying to measure them against Asian Rote Learning habits. American kids are not hung up on test scores, they are interested in what they can create, how they can utilize information and things, to develop or create something new or different. The sooner we realize this, the sooner we will began to re-gain respect for the america youth and their usage of information and knowledge. Not be hung up on Test Scores. 4-5 years ago, the Chinese realized in their Industry, that high test scores does not translate into higher productivity, and certainly not into good management skills. They can however repeat information they rote memorized.
America's innovate, they create, and they explore the possibilities. Asian nations do not aspire to those things, they aspire to people atoning themselves to adhere to traditions, which resist change as much and as long as they can.

Last edited by Chance and Change; 03-04-2014 at 07:44 PM..
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Old 03-05-2014, 11:33 AM
 
6,725 posts, read 6,601,290 times
Reputation: 2386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance and Change View Post
Chinese concept of how money is used is different from Western concepts: Chinese think about their coming generations, Much of American wants everything now, and our sense of waste is beyond belief.
APPLE continues to prove and rely on the American sense of waste. Every six months people shell out another $400-$500 for a phone, so they can play games.
Every place around the world looks at America as the 'dumping ground' for what they ship here. They can put catchy wrapping, followed by a slick commercial, and Americans will buy it.
Our landfills are packed with this stuff. Go to any city in the USA, and you will see a boom in building of "storage facilities".
We hoard this stuff and then pack it away in storage shed, never to be used again. In some areas, people can't even put a car in their garage, because it is full of stuff, some have backyards so cluttered with things they will never ever use again. We buy cars as if they are 'throw away items", all because of a new paint scheme or some re-shaped plastic. We are in a delusion about "power" we will spend an extra 10-100K Plus for horsepower that can never be utilized, yet we waste a vast amount of gas, simply so the car can make a certain sound of power.

Some people will spend more for a Sofa than the cost of some peoples automobiles. These are things that won't be used, they are simply for other people to look at, and for one to say how much they paid for it.

We look at the many poor areas around the world and view it as fiction, yet we waste more and more. We have become a people who will eat anything, as long as it promoted on TV and we are told celebrities eat it.

We have no sense of tradition, except when it comes to bigotry and racism, then we grab that tradition with a full heart of Enmity.

We are in many ways too haughty, to learn from others around the world. While they build for longevity and stability, our building has become cheap and low grade and we build obsolescence, trying to save a buck.

The current wage in Average America is an insult to the promoted and claimed standard of living. This renders us in many ways to live more poor than people in countries who make much less in actual dollars, then we waste what we make by chasing the illusions, which results to debt. Credit debt is the only means many have the illusion they are doing well. But the slightest bump in unemployment the house of cards crash. We then go into depression because we can't "shop".

America can no longer live on the Post World War II glory days, Our infrastructure is crumbling, and we can't even maintain what the people who came before us built. there are expanding ghetto's in every city across this nation. Old 1930-1940 shacks about to fall, and the track home communities of the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's look worn and tattered with no means to improve it. Vegetation over-growth, trees along streets that no longer are trimmed, and leaves and debris clutter the areas along the curbs.
but we are blind to it, as long as we can go on facebook, twitter and buy a new phone very 6 months. We will waste vast sums of money on anything with a Foreign Name on it, all the while it made in the same factors that make the 'no name" items, out of the same materials. But we are overly proud to claim we have something with a French Designers Name on it.
All the while the Asian Nations sell the same polo shirts and other items on the streets and in their shops for $5-$8, and we go to a big name store in our cities and shell out $65 upwards for the exact same thing.

Sadly, when foreigners move here, they get caught up in the same mentality, and quickly forget the frugality they were raised to regard.

As to education: American's grow up as free thinkers, so they think in innovation terms, not Rote Memorization's for the sake of Test Taking. We sorely mis-understand the elements of knowledge and functional use of it.
American's have no interest in "Rote Memorization", We are a cultures that seeks, to know the WHO, WHAT, WHY WHEN AND WERE, then we want to know the HOW TO.
Rote Memorization's is concerned with Rote Memory for the sake of Testing Scores. We do our American Kids an Injustice by trying to measure them against Asian Rote Learning habits. American kids are not hung up on test scores, they are interested in what they can create, how they can utilize information and things, to develop or create something new or different. The sooner we realize this, the sooner we will began to re-gain respect for the america youth and their usage of information and knowledge. Not be hung up on Test Scores. 4-5 years ago, the Chinese realized in their Industry, that high test scores does not translate into higher productivity, and certainly not into good management skills. They can however repeat information they rote memorized.
America's innovate, they create, and they explore the possibilities. Asian nations do not aspire to those things, they aspire to people atoning themselves to adhere to traditions, which resist change as much and as long as they can.
How many "creative" leaders and managers do we need? 90% jobs in the world are monkey jobs.
China will not hire Americans to be their leaders either.

Asian societies change way faster than western societies too, from culture to materials. Just check what China, Korea and Japan looked like 100 years ago, or even 30 years ago.
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Bothell, Washington
2,701 posts, read 4,668,795 times
Reputation: 3672
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
I don't deny Americans' life improved too, apparently, but not as dramatically as in China.

40 years ago - that will be 1974, most Chinese families would be lucky to have enough food for their children. A bicycle, a sewing machine are valuable assets; In the city, a household of 4 usually have about 200 sf of living space.
30 years ago, most Chinese didn't have a TV or a toilet at home - they had to go to those public restrooms without toilets, just a few holes which were disgusting - this is how bad life was.
20 years go, things were better, but hardly anyone has a personal vehicle. The vast majority of Chinese couldn't afford taking a flight somewhere. $100 sounded a LOT of money.

I think cars were never considered a luxury in America even in the 70s.

Today, they, at least those in cities, pretty have everything the Americans have, cars, computers, LED TVs, ipads etc. They travel overseas and generally think stuff in America is "so cheap".

Admittedly, overall living standards are not as good as in America, but the change can only be described as "extremely dramatic".

You made $1.6/hr 40 years ago, which is about $260 a month. A typical Chinese worker was making RMB 50-100 a month, which is like $10 a month. No kidding. Today, a construction worker or average office lady in Shanghai makes $1000-1500 a month.
It's not an even comparison saying Americans' lives have improved but not nearly as much as Chinese within the last 40 years. It's because we already hit that plateau of being a developed nation long before 40 years ago- so we made it to that flat level of comfortable, developed-world standard of living for most of population. Once that is reached, any nation just makes small advancements, because they are already at that top level. China has been and is still climbing, so of course each decade will look much better than the last.
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Bothell, Washington
2,701 posts, read 4,668,795 times
Reputation: 3672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance and Change View Post
Chinese concept of how money is used is different from Western concepts: Chinese think about their coming generations, Much of American wants everything now, and our sense of waste is beyond belief.
APPLE continues to prove and rely on the American sense of waste. Every six months people shell out another $400-$500 for a phone, so they can play games.
Every place around the world looks at America as the 'dumping ground' for what they ship here. They can put catchy wrapping, followed by a slick commercial, and Americans will buy it.
Our landfills are packed with this stuff. Go to any city in the USA, and you will see a boom in building of "storage facilities".
We hoard this stuff and then pack it away in storage shed, never to be used again. In some areas, people can't even put a car in their garage, because it is full of stuff, some have backyards so cluttered with things they will never ever use again. We buy cars as if they are 'throw away items", all because of a new paint scheme or some re-shaped plastic. We are in a delusion about "power" we will spend an extra 10-100K Plus for horsepower that can never be utilized, yet we waste a vast amount of gas, simply so the car can make a certain sound of power.

Some people will spend more for a Sofa than the cost of some peoples automobiles. These are things that won't be used, they are simply for other people to look at, and for one to say how much they paid for it.

We look at the many poor areas around the world and view it as fiction, yet we waste more and more. We have become a people who will eat anything, as long as it promoted on TV and we are told celebrities eat it.

We have no sense of tradition, except when it comes to bigotry and racism, then we grab that tradition with a full heart of Enmity.

We are in many ways too haughty, to learn from others around the world. While they build for longevity and stability, our building has become cheap and low grade and we build obsolescence, trying to save a buck.

The current wage in Average America is an insult to the promoted and claimed standard of living. This renders us in many ways to live more poor than people in countries who make much less in actual dollars, then we waste what we make by chasing the illusions, which results to debt. Credit debt is the only means many have the illusion they are doing well. But the slightest bump in unemployment the house of cards crash. We then go into depression because we can't "shop".

America can no longer live on the Post World War II glory days, Our infrastructure is crumbling, and we can't even maintain what the people who came before us built. there are expanding ghetto's in every city across this nation. Old 1930-1940 shacks about to fall, and the track home communities of the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's look worn and tattered with no means to improve it. Vegetation over-growth, trees along streets that no longer are trimmed, and leaves and debris clutter the areas along the curbs.
but we are blind to it, as long as we can go on facebook, twitter and buy a new phone very 6 months. We will waste vast sums of money on anything with a Foreign Name on it, all the while it made in the same factors that make the 'no name" items, out of the same materials. But we are overly proud to claim we have something with a French Designers Name on it.
All the while the Asian Nations sell the same polo shirts and other items on the streets and in their shops for $5-$8, and we go to a big name store in our cities and shell out $65 upwards for the exact same thing.

Sadly, when foreigners move here, they get caught up in the same mentality, and quickly forget the frugality they were raised to regard.

As to education: American's grow up as free thinkers, so they think in innovation terms, not Rote Memorization's for the sake of Test Taking. We sorely mis-understand the elements of knowledge and functional use of it.
American's have no interest in "Rote Memorization", We are a cultures that seeks, to know the WHO, WHAT, WHY WHEN AND WERE, then we want to know the HOW TO.
Rote Memorization's is concerned with Rote Memory for the sake of Testing Scores. We do our American Kids an Injustice by trying to measure them against Asian Rote Learning habits. American kids are not hung up on test scores, they are interested in what they can create, how they can utilize information and things, to develop or create something new or different. The sooner we realize this, the sooner we will began to re-gain respect for the america youth and their usage of information and knowledge. Not be hung up on Test Scores. 4-5 years ago, the Chinese realized in their Industry, that high test scores does not translate into higher productivity, and certainly not into good management skills. They can however repeat information they rote memorized.
America's innovate, they create, and they explore the possibilities. Asian nations do not aspire to those things, they aspire to people atoning themselves to adhere to traditions, which resist change as much and as long as they can.
The Chinese are not as forward thinking and frugal as is noted here- at least not the new/younger generation. They will now spend everything they have on the latest shoes, the latest designer clothing or accessories, and yes the latest iPhones every year when the new versions come out. It's even more of a hit for them because with lower average salaries and yet the same or even higher costs on these items than we have here in the US, it really hits them hard buying all of these things. But they do, because those items are status symbols. China is now the world's number 1 consumer of luxury goods. They are not even a developed country where you have large, widespread segments of the population who can afford such things, but yet those with any means are splurging to buy luxury goods. Everyone of my wife's family members and friends "back home" are doing this- they will spend almost a month's salary to buy the latest cell phones, and they replace them as often as we do here. So we are not as different as we might think- the only difference is they didn't have the MEANS to buy these things and be a consumer nation until very recently- at least a big enough segment of the population having that ability.

Last edited by jm31828; 03-05-2014 at 02:33 PM..
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Washington State
18,462 posts, read 9,561,235 times
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Boy, 3 or 4 excellent posts in a row that really veered somewhat from the thread topic but interesting nonetheless. As far as spending habits, my father was frugal and taught me to be frugal and I have tried to teach the same to my kids. So a generalization about Americans spending doesn't really apply much to me and I know plenty like myself that aren't always trying to buy the latest marketed thing (however, I do like tech stuff).

I worked in China (Shanghai & Beijing), Seoul, Mongolia, and spent time in Philippines & Thailand so I think I have some knowledge about Asian spending habits. Whether in Seoul, Shanghai, Mongolia, Manila, Bangkok, the newest phones and tech are bought and other status items are even more obviously displayed compared to what you see in the USA imho. I knew ladies that made 10% or less of my salary that would automatically buy the latest Iphone or Galaxy and also spend a huge amount on personal appearance items like makeup and clothes.

On education and its role in economy, Asians as noted rely on rote memory and you also see that they don't venture well outside their "lane" if they need to improvise from the planned way of doing something. But the work product of what is their standard assignment is almost universally impressive. Americans don't test as well but always seem to be creating the tech breakthroughs but I'm not exactly sure why other than independence of thought is encouraged in the USA and not so much in China or Asia from what I observed. Whether or not this continues for the next generation is anyone's guess. I encouraged my kids to learn Mandarin but unfortunately, they did not have enough interest to do so. I am concerned about their future with the increasing competition from China and Korea and how that will affect them working in the new world economy. It's going to be interesting to observe.
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Old 03-06-2014, 06:16 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,121 posts, read 23,642,005 times
Reputation: 11611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Traveler View Post
Boy, 3 or 4 excellent posts in a row that really veered somewhat from the thread topic but interesting nonetheless. As far as spending habits, my father was frugal and taught me to be frugal and I have tried to teach the same to my kids. So a generalization about Americans spending doesn't really apply much to me and I know plenty like myself that aren't always trying to buy the latest marketed thing (however, I do like tech stuff).

I worked in China (Shanghai & Beijing), Seoul, Mongolia, and spent time in Philippines & Thailand so I think I have some knowledge about Asian spending habits. Whether in Seoul, Shanghai, Mongolia, Manila, Bangkok, the newest phones and tech are bought and other status items are even more obviously displayed compared to what you see in the USA imho. I knew ladies that made 10% or less of my salary that would automatically buy the latest Iphone or Galaxy and also spend a huge amount on personal appearance items like makeup and clothes.

On education and its role in economy, Asians as noted rely on rote memory and you also see that they don't venture well outside their "lane" if they need to improvise from the planned way of doing something. But the work product of what is their standard assignment is almost universally impressive. Americans don't test as well but always seem to be creating the tech breakthroughs but I'm not exactly sure why other than independence of thought is encouraged in the USA and not so much in China or Asia from what I observed. Whether or not this continues for the next generation is anyone's guess. I encouraged my kids to learn Mandarin but unfortunately, they did not have enough interest to do so. I am concerned about their future with the increasing competition from China and Korea and how that will affect them working in the new world economy. It's going to be interesting to observe.
The American primary education system seemed to work much better overall in the past when there was a somewhat stronger emphasis on rote memory of things in order to establish a better basis for creative thinking. It takes some fantastically creative and free thinking in order to make genuine breakthroughs in all kinds of fields, but before that it often takes a lot of goddamn hours to just learn the fundamentals in order to have the tools to wield in a creative way.

The US does make a lot of tech breakthroughs, but much of it, especially lately, has been due to its relative prosperity attracting talent from other countries whether for the university systems or for major corporations. At some point that relative prosperity might level out compared to other nations and emigration to the US would become less attractive. What would be the safer bet for us in the US would be to invest heavily in studying and improving the US primary and secondary education system which may include reinstating a lot more "rote memory" sort of learning.
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Old 03-06-2014, 06:18 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,121 posts, read 23,642,005 times
Reputation: 11611
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm31828 View Post
It's not an even comparison saying Americans' lives have improved but not nearly as much as Chinese within the last 40 years. It's because we already hit that plateau of being a developed nation long before 40 years ago- so we made it to that flat level of comfortable, developed-world standard of living for most of population. Once that is reached, any nation just makes small advancements, because they are already at that top level. China has been and is still climbing, so of course each decade will look much better than the last.
Good point. It also means China can probably even out the GDP per capita to relatively small differences within a very short period of time. It's at least possible, though not necessarily probable.
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:03 PM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,701,374 times
Reputation: 1713
Quote:
Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3 View Post
Can you be more specific about "near future"? i can't see China getting up to 15 trillion gdp in my lifetime

I can see China getting up to 10 billion dollars, i hope there will be no economic crisis in China. i think the world would be an even greater with multiple Hyperpowers that can maintain a close relationship.
Then you will have a short lifetime.

China is already at 9.25 billion dollars (2013 CIA). China was at 2.235 billion in 2005.

My estimation is that China will surpass 15 billion dollars in 2020 or earlier.
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