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Old 03-05-2014, 04:46 AM
 
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"If China is such an evolved and superior nation, as you are always so keen to point out, then why do you seem so hellbent on them making the same mistakes that the Americans did?"...

Where have I ever stated that China is so much more
"superior"? I just want the same treatment for China in the Western media. Please point out where I stated this "evolved" thing for China.

I certainly do agree that mistakes should not be repeated. But that should be China's choice, not through the dictat of hypocrites in Washington or anywhere else. That is my first point.

Certainly no repeat of past mistakes, but just as certain, China should not have to pay the "price" for all those "descendents" of American genocidal acts who now live in comfort, enjoying the fruits of past sins, and pointing fingers at China because they feel "guilty" for the actions of their ancestors. That is my second point.

Why should China give up Tibet or Xinjiang, just so hypocrites in the US and Europe can feel better for their ancestors' past sins? That's just bs and you know it.
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:45 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,349,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
"If China is such an evolved and superior nation, as you are always so keen to point out, then why do you seem so hellbent on them making the same mistakes that the Americans did?"...

Where have I ever stated that China is so much more
"superior"? I just want the same treatment for China in the Western media. Please point out where I stated this "evolved" thing for China.

I certainly do agree that mistakes should not be repeated. But that should be China's choice, not through the dictat of hypocrites in Washington or anywhere else. That is my first point.

Certainly no repeat of past mistakes, but just as certain, China should not have to pay the "price" for all those "descendents" of American genocidal acts who now live in comfort, enjoying the fruits of past sins, and pointing fingers at China because they feel "guilty" for the actions of their ancestors. That is my second point.

Why should China give up Tibet or Xinjiang, just so hypocrites in the US and Europe can feel better for their ancestors' past sins? That's just bs and you know it.
And who here is saying that the US should give up Xinjiang and Tibet? Please go tell me where it is that I've said that... you'll be hard pressed because I think that they're China's, fair and square I'd be hard pressed to find reasons to support a theocracy over a secular government, plus China's history of ownership or patronage of both regions goes back much longer than anyone currently alive has been alive. However, so does the Uyghyr culture that has occupied that region for well over a thousand years. The PRC/PLA/whatever can go ahead and arrest, kill, etc as many Uyghyr terrorists as they care to and I'm fine with that, because they're murderers, plain and simple. But that umbrella doesn't include all Uyghyrs and they shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of people who happen through no fault of their own or anyone else to share the same ethnicity.

The popularity of the Tibetan freedom movement lost steam after the late 90's and most people in the US are ambivalent about it now as even the Dalai Lama is (openly, at least) seeking independence as he realizes that it's A) unrealistic and B) losing support among Tibetans themselves; most people in the US would think of Xinjiang independence the same way that they'd think of Texas or Arizona becoming an independent nation, i.e. they'd view the notion of a state or province splitting away to be fairly bizarre... pointless because of the might and economy of the nation they were splitting from, and illegal considering the number of Chinese from other parts of the nation who lived there and the fact that they own property, etc (Americans are very big on this).

I think that your opinion that China is being vilified in this situation is vastly overblown. I haven't seen anything that is sympathetic to the Uyghyr separatists in the US mainstream media; some of it errs on the side of sympathy towards the Uyghyrs who aren't separatists and who don't have anything to do with the issue of terrorism; much in the same way that people in the US generally don't view all Muslims as being terrorists, black people as being criminals, etc. Native American separatists (of whom there aren't that many) wouldn't be treated kindly in the US media - the closest thing that's got any media attention in the last decade or so are La Raza, who believe that the American Southwest should join Mexico to be part of a country called Aztlan, and they are widely disliked across most sectors and seen as moonbats... thankfully they never kill anybody. Americans, like people anywhere else in the world, are generally likely to think in analogues towards their own lives when it comes to life in other countries, and this forms the base of how they would view them. Add to this the whole Muslim angle, and you will have even less support, because the US' dealings with Muslim terrorists/insurgents/zealots/however you want to term them have been spectacularly bloody and violent.

So again, I really have no clue where it is that you're getting this idea that the US errs on the side of support for the Xinjiang separatist movement(s)...

Also:

Quote:
Absolutely bs. The Han dynasty had the whole region under its control, and then the ethnic Turks began filtering in through war and displacement at around 6th century. The Han Dynasty was first, and the Turks came after. Learn your history before you drink the Western media kool-aid.
They've only been there permanently settled there for a mere 1500 or so years... yeah, total newcomers What an absurd argument to make... this isn't a matter of "Western Media Kool-Aid," it's a matter of the fact that they've lived there for at least a millenia and a half, and there's really nothing "Turkish" about them other than them speaking a Turkic language, which incidentally is different from Turkish...

Earlier, you said this:

Quote:
I certainly do agree that mistakes should not be repeated. But that should be China's choice, not through the dictat of hypocrites in Washington or anywhere else. That is my first point.

Certainly no repeat of past mistakes...
But earlier still, you said:

Quote:
But who cares, since the question of who came first never ever stopped the American Republic from removing and displacing their native populations like the Cherokees and the Sioux when they saw fit. So why should China even bother with this argument? China should really just shrug its shoulder and do what's good for its national interest. like the US, Russia have always done.
Maybe you're trying to invoke sarcasm as a means with which to point out what you perceive as hypocrisy, but if that's the case, you need to work on your delivery, because it really just looks like you're alternately saying that genocide is A-OK or that it's bad depending on who/what you're talking about...
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Old 03-06-2014, 03:13 AM
 
4,679 posts, read 3,609,147 times
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415;

You are missing my main point. It is indeed sarcasm, and I don't care about my delivery. The point is that China could have done these things (like removal of Uyghurs and Tibetans...and I think it should have, personally), but it DID NOT. In fact the pop of Tibetans in Tibet and elsewhere have risen through the decades. The fact that countries like the US have done these acts in the past, and are now pointing fingers at China, reeks of hypocrisy that I find intolerable. I am pointing out what China should have done but, it seems, good guys finish last.

As for who rightfully own sovereignty of Tibet and Xinjiang, we have no argument.
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Old 03-06-2014, 03:59 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,349,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
415;

You are missing my main point. It is indeed sarcasm, and I don't care about my delivery. The point is that China could have done these things (like removal of Uyghurs and Tibetans...and I think it should have, personally), but it DID NOT. In fact the pop of Tibetans in Tibet and elsewhere have risen through the decades. The fact that countries like the US have done these acts in the past, and are now pointing fingers at China, reeks of hypocrisy that I find intolerable. I am pointing out what China should have done but, it seems, good guys finish last.
It's a shame that you evidently believe that people should be held accountable for the sins of their fathers, so to speak (I suppose it's more accurate to include race, ethnicity, culture, religion, etc in your case); a very simple, punitive, and pointlessly-antiquated way of thinking that has more in line with the very Xinjiang terrorists than any valid, modern way of thinking. It's also a shame that you think that genocide is a good thing, but hey: at least you're not in any position of power

Quote:
As for who rightfully own sovereignty of Tibet and Xinjiang, we have no argument.
And at least there's that, too...
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:23 AM
 
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"at least you're not in any position of power"..

Indeed, and it's a real shame that you can't seem to get the gist of my post, but you sure love to get the last word in. At least we do have that in common.

There are still plenty of Native American descendents who would love to get some pay back for their lost land. Go start a petition/protest and don't hide behind the "sins of my father" bs, especially when you are sitting pretty enjoying the fruits of their genocidal labor.
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,349,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
"at least you're not in any position of power"..

Indeed, and it's a real shame that you can't seem to get the gist of my post, but you sure love to get the last word in. At least we do have that in common.

There are still plenty of Native American descendents who would love to get some pay back for their lost land. Go start a petition/protest and don't hide behind the "sins of my father" bs, especially when you are sitting pretty enjoying the fruits of their genocidal labor.
Ooooh, that cut deep... most of my family wasn't in America at the point that all that happened, but even if they were, it's really not my fault one way or the other that I was born in the 'States of a primarily caucasian background.

Are the Han not sitting back and enjoying the fruits of their dominance over China? Have they not done this for generations? Who's the hypocrite now?

The descendants of Native Americans have reservations, for better or worse, which are self-governing and do not allow for non-natives to engage in free commerce. As I've stated before, we live in the modern era and there are realities that have to be taken into account in the situation: you now have generations of non-ethnic Native Americans who are in fact native Americans and call the US their home and they can't be relocated or plunked down anywhere else in the world without a what is termed as a "genocide" taking place. Not dissimilar from the situation with the Uyghyrs, though they've occupied a sparsely-populated area for well over a thousand years.

I'm not "hiding" behind anything whatsoever, just calling the chips as they fall. If the US did decide that it was going to wage a war against a native population as part of a resource or power grab now, you bet your salt I'd be out there protesting it... wouldn't be the first time. Again, now I'm a native American by literal definition, all the same that a Han in Xinjiang is. I don't support subjugating a Uyghyr based on their ethnicity any more than I support subjugating a Native American for the same reason.

You are hiding behind attempts to deflect your own racism and nationalism with the historical actions of other groups, and claiming alternately these misdeeds are evil hubris and justification for them to take place once again where they suit your own predispositions (i.e., talking about how you think that China should have finished the job when they had the chance).
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Old 03-06-2014, 02:32 PM
 
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I don't know why you keep harping on this thousand year thing....it certainly did not help the native peoples in US history. The fact that China did not carry out the sort of genocide that characterized US history in relations to the native issue should be noted. But instead, the BBC, CNN etc are always running stories that subtly if not blatantly point to these terrorist acts as acts of desperation and hence somehow excusable. Don't you see the problem with that? In any case, I have made my point.

Last edited by pennyone; 03-06-2014 at 02:48 PM..
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Old 03-06-2014, 07:34 PM
 
1,862 posts, read 3,002,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
I don't know why you keep harping on this thousand year thing....it certainly did not help the native peoples in US history. The fact that China did not carry out the sort of genocide that characterized US history in relations to the native issue should be noted. But instead, the BBC, CNN etc are always running stories that subtly if not blatantly point to these terrorist acts as acts of desperation and hence somehow excusable. Don't you see the problem with that? In any case, I have made my point.
I kind of have to agree with you here. Not just for Uighurs, but the Tibetans as well. Based on its historical (and present) dealings with Native Aboriginal Americans, the US does not have the moral authority to take China to task over its treatment of these people, other than to suggest letting them open up some casinos.
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Old 01-22-2018, 10:46 PM
 
64 posts, read 31,273 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
I don't know why you keep harping on this thousand year thing....it certainly did not help the native peoples in US history. The fact that China did not carry out the sort of genocide that characterized US history in relations to the native issue should be noted. But instead, the BBC, CNN etc are always running stories that subtly if not blatantly point to these terrorist acts as acts of desperation and hence somehow excusable. Don't you see the problem with that? In any case, I have made my point.

I'm afraid your wrong about China not having a genocide tarnishing its image. China has carried out its own genocide since 1949. The communist take over of 1949 BENEFITED the HUAN CHINESE minority over all other ethnic Chinese groups. In 1949 HUAN CHINESE statistically made up only 25 percent of China's population. Today HUAN CHINESE make up 85 to 90 percent of China's population. The communists since 1949 gave the best farming lands to the HUAN's and have let all of the other ethnic chinese die out by forcibly evicting people like the UYGHURS and putting them on less productive farms lands forcing their population to shrink by starvation in favor of the HUAN'S...

Last edited by Deeboy; 01-22-2018 at 11:26 PM..
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Old 01-22-2018, 11:23 PM
 
64 posts, read 31,273 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoutboy View Post
I kind of have to agree with you here. Not just for Uighurs, but the Tibetans as well. Based on its historical (and present) dealings with Native Aboriginal Americans, the US does not have the moral authority to take China to task over its treatment of these people, other than to suggest letting them open up some casinos.

I disagree. United states does indeed have the moral authority to take China to task over its treatment of Tibetans and Uighurs. All societies have had an aboriginal majority discriminated against and reduced to a minority. And China has always been in violation of civil liberties not only of her own but also against her minorities who once where the majority....Dont forget the UYGHURS are descended from an ancient aboringinal WHITE CAUCASIAN MAJORITY who dominated China's population 5 to 6 thousand years ago.
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