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Old 02-03-2016, 09:02 PM
 
919 posts, read 603,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Objectivity is not necessary (if possible at all) in history.

After Mongols and Manchus invaded China proper, they actually governed China in the same way as Chinese did. Chinese people did not significantly change their identity, language, culture, economic system and so on.
Interesting.

You wrote Yuan's invasion to Japan had nothing to do with today China though.
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:40 PM
 
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Is Tibet part of China? It is under Chinese administration and Tibetans are citizens of the PRC. Now I believe the real question would be is Tibet ethnically, culturally part of China? Well given Tibet was annexed to China by means of military force, I would say probably not. However the only ones who can really answer this question are Tibetans, do they consider themselves Chinese? By the same token, do Han Chinese view Tibetans as Chinese only when it serves the patriotic aggrandizement feeling of the Greater China, and as Tibetans for all the rest? How come there is an independence movement? How about Uyghurs, which get next to no press at all in the West?
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Old 02-03-2016, 10:20 PM
 
964 posts, read 704,305 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
In history, nothing is really "always". Even China government uses the term "since ancient time" not "always".

Foreigners could not really "help" Tibet either. You see what happened in Korea.
That's not the point I was making. Tibet tries to play the victim, saying no one came to help them. But it's their own fault. The government was ok with China's overtures. They just didn't expect a complete takeover, and they didn't expect it to be as harsh as it was.

And it's not true that Tibet was part of China "since ancient times". You already said so, yourself. You said it's been part of China since the Qing Dynasty, which is correct. You can look at the maps of "ancient time" China, and see that Tibet isn't included. China for it's early history was only a fraction of its current size.

Last edited by MountainHi; 02-03-2016 at 10:31 PM..
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Old 02-04-2016, 06:51 AM
 
1,424 posts, read 736,377 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanagisawa View Post
Interesting.

You wrote Yuan's invasion to Japan had nothing to do with today China though.
It had "something" to do with China, but Chinese people/governments in general had no interest in Japan. Mongols were different because they were interested in conquering the whole world they knew of.
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Old 02-04-2016, 06:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHi View Post
That's not the point I was making. Tibet tries to play the victim, saying no one came to help them. But it's their own fault. The government was ok with China's overtures. They just didn't expect a complete takeover, and they didn't expect it to be as harsh as it was.

And it's not true that Tibet was part of China "since ancient times". You already said so, yourself. You said it's been part of China since the Qing Dynasty, which is correct. You can look at the maps of "ancient time" China, and see that Tibet isn't included. China for it's early history was only a fraction of its current size.
Qing could be "ancient" too. Xinjiang, Tibet, Taiwan, Manchuria, and Mongolia became a part of China in Qing.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:24 PM
 
1,379 posts, read 1,815,839 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
I've never said Tibet should be independent of China. I was just setting the historical record straight.

But you present an odd argument. Why should China grab a country just because it's rivers originate there? That's odd reasoning. Should the US claim parts of southern Canada, then? Should the countries surrounding Switzerland divide up that country among themselves, to have control of important watersheds? Does national sovereignty mean nothing in the face of someone's perceived need to control watersheds?

Try again. You can come up with better arguments for China to have Tibet.
This is hardly an odd argument. This is how all great powers operate. If you don't like it, tough. You might as well ask the Turks to give up Eastern Anatolia aka Northern Kurdistan since they hold onto that region for the same exact reason why the Chinese hold onto Tibet (Eastern Anatolia has the watersheds for the Tigris and Euphrates rivers). Tibet is only an issue because China isn't pro-Western like Turkey. If China were pro-Western, they would probably be allowed to annex Mongolia since the Republic of China (aka Taiwan) claims Mongolia as being a part of China and not a single Western country has an issue with that claim.
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Old 02-04-2016, 04:12 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,866 posts, read 70,665,916 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Objectivity is not necessary (if possible at all) in history.

After Mongols and Manchus invaded China proper, they actually governed China in the same way as Chinese did. Chinese people did not significantly change their identity, language, culture, economic system and so on. For example, both Yuan and Qing worshipped Confucius. The laws were still written in Chinese and did not change much. It is fundamentally different from the Islamification of Persia, or the "Aryan invasion" of India.

In old days, nations were not equal to each other (maybe today is the same) and powerful nations always had a strong influence on smaller nations in terms of political systems and culture. Therefore, sometimes the boundary between "countries" is vague.
The Mongols and Manchus were Buddhists, not Confucianists. The Jin (Jurchens) renamed themselves "Manchu" in honor of the Buddha Manjushri, after they converted to Buddhism. And they treated the Chinese as 2nd-class citizens. Of course both those conquering peoples had to rule in Chinese; requiring everyone to learn Mongolian or Manchu wouldn't have been practical. But that's beside the point. The language they chose to communicate in doesn't determine whether they're "Chinese" or not. It's obvious they're not Chinese.

"Powerful nations always had a strong influence on smaller nations"? You must be aware that the Mongol Empire was many times the size of China, right? It was the largest empire the world had ever known, at the time. And the Liao were another Mongol tribe. China struggled to maintain any independence from the Mongols and other peoples to its north.
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Old 02-05-2016, 01:53 AM
 
919 posts, read 603,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
It had "something" to do with China, but Chinese people/governments in general had no interest in Japan.
Can't stop laughing.
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Old 02-05-2016, 06:59 AM
 
1,424 posts, read 736,377 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
The Mongols and Manchus were Buddhists, not Confucianists. The Jin (Jurchens) renamed themselves "Manchu" in honor of the Buddha Manjushri, after they converted to Buddhism. And they treated the Chinese as 2nd-class citizens. Of course both those conquering peoples had to rule in Chinese; requiring everyone to learn Mongolian or Manchu wouldn't have been practical. But that's beside the point. The language they chose to communicate in doesn't determine whether they're "Chinese" or not. It's obvious they're not Chinese.

"Powerful nations always had a strong influence on smaller nations"? You must be aware that the Mongol Empire was many times the size of China, right? It was the largest empire the world had ever known, at the time. And the Liao were another Mongol tribe. China struggled to maintain any independence from the Mongols and other peoples to its north.
I said Yuan and Qing governments worshipped Confucius, not that Mongols or Manchus were not Buddhists. Confucianism is not really an (exclusive) religion, and many people were Buddhist and Confucian at the same time. In fact, nobody in China considers Confucianism a religion. Only westerners do so.

Mongols were militarily powerful (for a short period of time in China), but culturally poor compared to other agricultural nations in central and east Asia. As a result, Mongols had very little influence in the Middle East and East Asia after they left.

Jurchens, Khitans (Liao) and later Manchus were actually quite Sinitized even before they entered China proper (just think about ancient Korea). For example, Nurhaci was fluent in Mandarin.
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Old 02-05-2016, 07:00 AM
 
1,424 posts, read 736,377 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanagisawa View Post
Can't stop laughing.
Then keep laughing.
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