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lol. I bet you don't know that the Tai-Kadai language speaking people ARE the Austronesians and AustroAsiatics themselves? lol. but why are they lighter-skinned while the others are darker-skinned? Where do you think Tai-Kadai language speaking people were from? lol. I bet you don't know ancient Chinese language had some Austronesian and AustroAsiatic vocabulary? lol. Present HAN Chinese in Southern China also carry Austronesian and AustroAsiatic admixture themselves! Han Southern Chinese don't look the same as Han Northern Chinese, they are usually seen as shorter, tanner, double eyelids. The fact that Tai-Kadai language speaking people used to roam in Southern China with such large population like you said, now you get from whom Han Southern Chinese people get these traits from Obviously, a small number of some ethnic minorities above don't contribute much.
You heard about something called "out-of-taiwan migration"? After you learn it, you'll know why these tribes look dark . In your close-minded mind, Austronesian genes and AustroAsiatic genes must mean "dark" because of how those people look today. Tai-Kadai language speaking people were the same as them, why are they lighter? lol
Bottom line, why do you try to prove so bad how dark other people are? to make you look a little lighter?
Very little is known about Austronesians or the people who would become Austronesians. I think Chinese chronicles speak of 'barbarians' south of the Yangtze who were scantily clad and had tattoos. These people were probably similar to the Taiwanese aborigines of today. If they spoke Austronesian they were pushed out, and many were genetically assimilated into the Southern Han today. If you see a Chinese person with a nose as broad as this:
As you should know, language and genetics often do not correlate.
The Vietnamese in Hanoi clearly look very similar to the ethnic minorities of S.China and the Southern Han Chinese in places like Yunnan, Guangxi, Guizhou, Guangdong, Fujian even. Even the other Mon-Khmer speakers probably came from China in the last 4000 years at the latest.
The relationship between Vietnamese and Khmer is questionable. My Vietnamese friend says she can understand almost no Khmer. Should they really be in the same family?
Well said, Postman! However, though unintelligible, Vietnamese and Khmer *languages* both have Mon-Khmer roots:
There has been reluctance in the past in accepting Vietic, which includes Vietnamese, as a branch of Mon-Khmer, but recent studies make this quite certain.
Indeed, Vietnamese is more mon-khmer being more out of China (think Funan), like you say, whereas Khmer (and Burmese 'Mon' too) actually have a strong predominance of pali/sanskrit root influence in much of their language despite being a geographically austroasiatic, as well as mon-khmer, language.
The genetics of khmers come much less from China than it does for vietnamese, and, the former deserves a whole other discussion based on recent genetic findings.
Indeed, Vietnamese is more mon-khmer being more out of China (think Funan), like you say, whereas Khmer (and Burmese 'Mon' too) actually have a strong predominance of pali/sanskrit root influence in much of their language despite being a geographically austroasiatic, as well as mon-khmer, language.
The genetics of khmers come much less from China than it does for vietnamese, and, the former deserves a whole other discussion based on recent genetic findings.
Perhaps Vietnamese has Mon-Khmer roots but it seems very heavily influenced by both Middle Chinese and perhaps other languages. Although Vietnamese and Japanese are in different families to Chinese and have borrowed half their vocabulary, Vietnamese sounds a lot more similar to the southern Chinese languages while Japanese doesn't sound like Chinese at all or any other language for that matter, maybe a bit like Korean and even Italian.
You're too fond of using linguistics to formulate identity between disparate groups. It's pretty obvious that modern Thai-Siamese speak a Tai-Kradai language as a results of language shift (where a language spreads into a population) rather than displacement of Mon-Khmer natives by Tai-speaking peoples.
If language was so intimately connected to a person's genes than how do you proposed you and I being able to communicate in English despite having no English genes or ancestry. Right, this is because one can learn to speak a new language regardless of one's genetic makeup. Also hence why children of immigrants can speak the language of the host country perfectly while their parents struggle despite no radical genetic change.
There are some prominent examples of language shifts in Southeast Asia like for example Tibeto-Burmic languages infiltrating Mon Kingdoms in Myanmar; Austro-asiatic language shift in Northeastern India among the Munda tribes; and Tai-Kradai languages in Thailand.
I know your entire gimmick is that you want to connect Thai-Siamese people to Tai-speaking tribes of Southwestern China but the truth is that population genetic studies shows that Thai-Siamese people are primarily of Mon-Khmer descent who shifted to speaking a Tai-Kradai language. This is not to say that you don't have direct Dai/Tai heritage but you are obviously in complete denial of your majority Mon-Khmer heritage probably in due to very successful royalist propaganda from the Thai monarchy which emphasized pure Tai heritage.
You don't want to hear or believe it but Vietnamese people are actually more genetically related to 'pure' Dai or Tai peoples than Thai-Siamese or Lao people despite speaking a totally different language. It's funny how that worked out actually: Vietnamese are a Tai people who now speak a Mon-Khmer language while Thai-Siamese are a Mon-Khmer people who now speak a Tai language. It makes complete sense since Tai speaking minorities in Northern Vietnam are virtually indistinguishable from ordinary Vietnamese.
tl;dr
Linguistics can lie about your true origins but genetics never will
Quote:
You're too fond of using linguistics to formulate identity between disparate groups. It's pretty obvious that modern Thai-Siamese speak a Tai-Kradai language as a results of language shift (where a language spreads into a population) rather than displacement of Mon-Khmer natives by Tai-speaking peoples.
If language was so intimately connected to a person's genes than how do you proposed you and I being able to communicate in English despite having no English genes or ancestry. Right, this is because one can learn to speak a new language regardless of one's genetic makeup. Also hence why children of immigrants can speak the language of the host country perfectly while their parents struggle despite no radical genetic change.
There are some prominent examples of language shifts in Southeast Asia like for example Tibeto-Burmic languages infiltrating Mon Kingdoms in Myanmar; Austro-asiatic language shift in Northeastern India among the Munda tribes; and Tai-Kradai languages in Thailand.
Thai people in Thailand and Lao people in Laos today speaking Tai-Kadai language as national langauge because of the majority of population are out of Tai-Kadai origin, while people whom out of Mon-khmer origin are minority.
It's almost impossible(99%) and never happen anywhere in the world for ethnic who are majority of the nation to shift their own language to speak the language of ethnic minority
It's the same story that a American-born Vietnamese like you have to shift your language from Vietnamese into English,YES!! It's becasue you are "MINORITY" in USA. If Vietnamese happened to be majority of USA then Viet language would already be national language of USA.
Anyway, get real. The majority of USA population are European from England, and that is why they use English as national language of USA and not France or German or other European language.
Quote:
I know your entire gimmick is that you want to connect Thai-Siamese people to Tai-speaking tribes of Southwestern China but the truth is that population genetic studies shows that Thai-Siamese people are primarily of Mon-Khmer descent who shifted to speaking a Tai-Kradai language. This is not to say that you don't have direct Dai/Tai heritage but you are obviously in complete denial of your majority Mon-Khmer heritage probably in due to very successful royalist propaganda from the Thai monarchy which emphasized pure Tai heritage.
You don't want to hear or believe it but Vietnamese people are actually more genetically related to 'pure' Dai or Tai peoples than Thai-Siamese or Lao people despite speaking a totally different language. It's funny how that worked out actually: Vietnamese are a Tai people who now speak a Mon-Khmer language while Thai-Siamese are a Mon-Khmer people who now speak a Tai language. It makes complete sense since Tai speaking minorities in Northern Vietnam are virtually indistinguishable from ordinary Vietnamese.
lol "Vietnamese are a Tai people who now speak a Mon-Khmer language".
Where is your study? What you said is as bull$hit as saying Latino are genetically more European than the Spainish themselves LOL.
Why Singaporean and Taiwanese don't speak Austronesian(Malay) language as a national language, even if we all know that land of Singapore and Taiwan used to belong to Austronesian(Malay) race? (Just like how you said that land of Laos and Thailand used to belong to Mon-Khmer native). Are you going to tell us that there are more of Singaporean and Taiwanese who are out of Austronesian race than those who out of Han-Chinese race just because the land used to belong to Austronesian native?
I doubt it works that way......:smack :
I can go on even more...
Q:Why do Australian are using English as national language and not Australian Native language?
A:It's because European are dominated ethnic.
Q:Why do Canadian are using English as national language and not some kind of language speak by Native or France?
A:It's because European are dominated ethnic.
Q:Why do Argentinian are using Spanish as national language and not language that speak by South American native tribes?
A:It's because European are dominated ethnic.
For the language of Vietnam, Vietnamese is speaking Mon-Khmer language(with a lot of Chinese borrowed vocab) as national language majority population of Vietnamese are out of Mon-Khmer ethnic, and it's a dominated race(and Vietnamese facial construction of flat broad face+flat broad nose+strong squarish jawline+strong prominent cheekbone just the same as the rest of Mon-Khmer family of Wa/Blang/De'ang/Khmer. It's just Vietnamese having lighter skin tone(because mixing with Han-Chinese invader) when compare to other Mon-Khmer. That is about it, that is the only different in the physical appearance between Vietnamese and the rest of Mon-Khmer family).
If there are more of people who out of "Han-Chinese" ethnic then Mon-Khmer ethnic in Vietnam. Vietnam today would already use some kind of Chinese language as a national langauge just like how Singaporean and Taiwanese do already.
Vietnam/Vietnamese today are placed in same scenario as of Filipino/Philippines. Filipino are completely influenced culturally by Spanish and their language also have over 50% of Spanish borrowed vocab. Just like Vietnamese who are completely influenced culturally by Han-Chinese and have like over 50% of vocab are borrowed from Chinese. But yet both Vietnamese and Filipino are still speaking their own native language that belong to the majority of nation total population(Viet= Mon-Khmer, Filipino= Austronesian).
It's because Philippines has Austronesian race as ethnic majority and not Spainish and Vietnam has Mon-Khmer race as ethnic majority and not Han-Chinese race(don't even talk about Tai-Kadai race....since we completely can't find(or maybe can find but extremely barely like sharing stupid folktale.....that is all..) any connection between Tai-Kadai speaker(Lao/Thai/Dai/Zhuang) to the people of Vietnam).
Last edited by Ezio_Auditore; 04-06-2014 at 11:51 PM..
@Postman Great analogy! Japanese sounds like turkish to me and totally apart from any south/east asian language!!
Likewise Vietnamese despite grouped among mon-Khmer languages sounds alike Chinese and is tonal.
It has been my observance that tonal indo-chinese languages get more of their influence from China and non-tonal languages such as khmer get more of their influence from India.
As it so happens:
Chinese is tonal, and Hindi is not.
Vietnamese is tonal, and Khmer is not.
Very little is known about Austronesians or the people who would become Austronesians. I think Chinese chronicles speak of 'barbarians' south of the Yangtze who were scantily clad and had tattoos.These people were probably similar to the Taiwanese aborigines of today. If they spoke Austronesian they were pushed out, and many were genetically assimilated into the Southern Han today.
They were probably Tai-Kadai language speaking people who used to roam Southern China.
I really can't understand why Vietnamese seem to hated Mon-Khmer heritage of original/true Vietnamese so much? But on another they are extremely proud of the heritage that the Han-Chinese invader brainwashed them to follow?
How come Tai-Kadai speakers don't have any connection with other Southeast Asians while they were basically Austronesians and AustroAsiatics who shared the very similar costumes and culture a few thousand years ago before Northern Han Chinese came down?
How come Tai-Kadai speakers don't have any connection with other Southeast Asians while they were basically Austronesians and AustroAsiatics who shared the very similar costumes and culture a few thousand years ago before Northern Han Chinese came down?
Tai-Kadai people may have some extremely ancient connection with Austronesian people, but definitely not Mon-Khmer people.
Based on feature of Tai-Kadai(Dai/Zhuang/Lao/Thai) compare to Austronesian(Malay/Indonesian/Filipino) I notice that face shape and nose shape are quite similar to one another. But there are two differences that can clearly tell apart which are eye shape and skin tone.
1.Tai-Kadai most of the time will have either single eyelid or hooded eye(double eyelid that has very small unseen lid). While Austronesian most of the time will have very big clear double eyelid and sometime could be triple eyelid.
2.Tai-Kadai skin tone range from white-pale tone(lightest) to dark-yellow tone(darkest). While Austronesian skin tone range from dark-yellow tone(lightest) to dark-brown tone(darkest).
Another thing is some evience of proto Tai-Kadai language also shared connection with Austronesian language.
So it might be true that Tai-Kadai are basically a cold adapted version of Austronesian that move into the mainland(from Taiwan into Fujian province and deeper into inner land of Southern-China) very very long time ago, after the time pass the evolution occur and created unique look Tai-Kadai of today which has eye shape and skin tone of East-Asian but face shape and nose shape of Austronesian.
For Vietnamese and Cambodian(Both are Mon-Khmer). Both were bother of same parent(along side with other Mon-Khmer such as Wa/Blang/Deang/Suy). Then Cambodian and Vietnamese brothers were sent to live and grew up in different world, Cambodian sent to live and grew up in Indian-Hindu world but Vietnamese sent to live and grew up in Sino-Chinese world.
Today Vietnamese and Cambodian as well as other Mon-Khmer are still having very similar facial construction(strong prominent cheekbone, strong squarish jaw line, flat broad nose without nose bridge), the only different is that Vietnamese on average will be in lighter tone when compare to Cambodian and other Mon-Khmer people because of mixing with Han-Chinese during 1000 years of occupation (the original true Vietnamese suppose to be as dark as other Mon-Khmer people like Wa/Cambodian/Blang/Deang/Suy).
You say it is impossible for a minority people to shift a language? How about the most popular and well known language of them all: English. Did you know that that the genetic impact of Anglo-Saxons on the British Isles was minimal but that their language replaced all of the native language including Brittonic-Celtic, Irish, Welsh, and Scottish Gaelic? Not only that but English has penetrated throughout the world and will eventually become the world's primary language if current globalization rates continue. Think about it, the language of a small island country in Northwest Europe of about 50 million has influenced 775 million people worldwide, and will continue for the foreseeable future until it becomes the dominant global language.
In all likelihood, Tai tribes probably invaded parts of Southeast Asia, became the dominant economic force and/or establish kingdoms leading to the language shift we see today as commoners learned the language of their conquerors. I can draw many parallels between Thai-Siamese and modern day mestizo Mexicans in which a foreign people invaded, conquered, and mated their women leading to a population which has mixed native origins but speak the language of their conquerors. Only in the Thai-Siamese case, native Mon-Khmer ancestry make up the majority while the reverse is true of Mexicans (on average).
Funny, how you insist on modern Vietnamese being a fusion of natives and Chinese and yet the language never shifted towards a Sinitic one. It really must speak volumes on the relative strength of the native civilizations especially when compared to the pre-Taiified Siamese who essentially allowed poor immigrants fleeing Yunnan to dominate their economy and nation. The same immigrants who in Vietnam are regarded as poor uneducated mountain minorities. We shouldn't be surprised at this fact because Siam/Thailand is now currently dominated by poor immigrants who fled Fujian and Guangdong, China. Looks like you were again successful in forcing your Tai language, heritage, and culture on these people too because they seem to speak and identify as Thai nowadays.
Be honest with yourself. There's no way Thai-Siamese could be 'pure' Tai/Dai or anything other than a Mon-Khmer and Dai mixture much like your Laotian brethren.
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