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Old 04-28-2014, 03:35 PM
 
1,379 posts, read 1,819,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
While the West has done a lot of crap in the past as well, we are talking about the present. And in the present we do not buy ivory stuff in Europe or the US anymore. In China the government is actually sponsoring the creation of new ivory carving academies while officially pretending to observe the ban.

Anyway, an interesting article from a respected source:
BBC News - Uncovering China's illegal ivory trade

Frankly, I don't care about the feelings of the Chinese or Japanese, elephants and whales are much more important to me than some political correctness or hurt feelings.
With that attitude, don't expect them to care about how you feel either.

 
Old 04-28-2014, 03:50 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,608 posts, read 19,387,292 times
Reputation: 8585
I don't care whether they care how I feel. Would be enough if they cared about how the animals feel...
There is a lot of information out there, provided one is not deliberately ignorant...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-like-us.html
 
Old 04-28-2014, 04:10 PM
 
1,379 posts, read 1,819,477 times
Reputation: 980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I don't care whether they care how I feel. Would be enough if they cared about how the animals feel...
There is a lot of information out there, provided one is not deliberately ignorant...

Elephants really do grieve like us: They shed tears and even try to 'bury' their dead - a leading wildlife film-maker reveals how the animals are like us | Mail Online
No one with power (such as business or government) in the West really presses China or Japan about these things. The only things they talk about with them are economic, military, and business interests and nothing more which is why there aren't any changes. If the upper class in the West doesn't care about animal rights then why would the upper class in those countries care? I don't ever recall a single instance in which a US president or diplomat ever pressed China on animal rights. There were some instances in which the US did plan to press Japan about whaling but it is almost always shut down by people at the top. MacArthur was especially notorious for it.
 
Old 04-28-2014, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,301,911 times
Reputation: 2833
First off, don't take statistics as conclusive. Anyone can come up with statistics, we have no idea on the samples they used, and it's likely quite rigged to obtain a higher figure (well I hope so anyway). At this stage, I'm not going to comment on whether the vast majority of Chinese people support the ivory trade or not because it's not something I know but I certainly hope that's not the case.

But yes, certainly, there are many in Chinese who don't give a damn about elephants or rhinos or other endangered species (or anywhere else) and also those folks who buy still believe ground rhino horns can cure all kinds of diseases...I suspect many of these folk probably aren't aware of the conservation status of elephants, or how endangered they are, as long as the poachers can make money off their ignorance. As for those bribing Africans to poach - that is definitely deplorable, after ivory was banned in the West for the most part this is a real shame to hear. It's ironic that while tigers will probably never go extinct (ex in the wild), the sad fact is that many of the tigers in captivity in China are often exploited, sometimes for their body parts. Yes, when you see documentaries and read articles like that it does seem the Chinese overall have a certain callousness towards wildlife - there may even be some truth to it, but the key is, like everywhere, about changing attitudes rather than just condemnation (although that has it's place).

As for the Japanese...whaling is a separate issue. I'm against whaling, although partly because they're threatened not simply because they're whales, but many Japanese are too. You can't generalise all Japanese from a few whalers. It's like generalising Canadians from a few who club baby seals.

I know this is an emotional topic, but I notice people are quick to generalise huge groups of people just because of this.
 
Old 04-28-2014, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,790 posts, read 13,391,394 times
Reputation: 11313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I guess it is obvious that I am not saying all Japanese or Chinese do this and that. It is like saying Germans are stiff, Spaniards are temperamental, etc. That doesn't mean it applies to each and every one of them.
I dunno man: "East Asians: Jekyll And Hyde" versus "The Ivory Trade in China" or something like that... I can see where it could be misconstrued as a slam against an entire group, considering that "Jekyll and Hyde" is a famous story about a two-faced, monstrous psychopath. Also, what you posted is about China and the Chinese, not East Asia.

I find it difficult to believe that they could somehow ascertain that 85% of a country of nearly a billion and a half people support the ivory trade; there's no polling body like the Pew who have access to the population in the way that they have in the West, and the majority of China's population is rural and in areas that are more difficult for private enterprises to poll.

Quote:
If the Chinese think ivory carving is such a great art, why don't they develop an artificial material with similar properties? After all, it is about the art, right?
I bought a traditionally-carved scene of Chang-e ascending to the moon made from camel bone. Items like this are popular in China, and 99.99% of them are made from the bones of camels, cows, yaks, etc. You can buy tusks made from walrus. Smaller pieces are made from tagua nut, or ivory palm seeds.

Also worth noting: the piece I got cost about 3,000 yuan, or $500. This is considerably more than most Chinese people make in a month, and it's for camel bone, which is basically worthless on the world market. They had a very small piece made from real ivory that came with government certification papers stating it was made fifty years ago, and it cost 12,000 yuan, or about $2,000, which is more than many Chinese make in a year. I don't believe that 85% of China is any position to buy such things, especially when cars and property are much bigger aspirations.
 
Old 04-28-2014, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,301,911 times
Reputation: 2833
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
I dunno man: "East Asians: Jekyll And Hyde" versus "The Ivory Trade in China" or something like that... I can see where it could be misconstrued as a slam against an entire group, considering that "Jekyll and Hyde" is a famous story about a two-faced, monstrous psychopath. Also, what you posted is about China and the Chinese, not East Asia.

I find it difficult to believe that they could somehow ascertain that 85% of a country of nearly a billion and a half people support the ivory trade; there's no polling body like the Pew who have access to the population in the way that they have in the West, and the majority of China's population is rural and in areas that are more difficult for private enterprises to poll.


I bought a traditionally-carved scene of Chang-e ascending to the moon made from camel bone. Items like this are popular in China, and 99.99% of them are made from the bones of camels, cows, yaks, etc. You can buy tusks made from walrus. Smaller pieces are made from tagua nut, or ivory palm seeds.

Also worth noting: the piece I got cost about 3,000 yuan, or $500. This is considerably more than most Chinese people make in a month, and it's for camel bone, which is basically worthless on the world market. They had a very small piece made from real ivory that came with government certification papers stating it was made fifty years ago, and it cost 12,000 yuan, or about $2,000, which is more than many Chinese make in a year. I don't believe that 85% of China is any position to buy such things, especially when cars and property are much bigger aspirations.
True, but even if 10% can afford it that's 10% too many, and more than enough to deplete wild populations of elephants.etc.
 
Old 05-20-2014, 01:12 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,608 posts, read 19,387,292 times
Reputation: 8585
Also an indication China might have a little problem with superstition...

Chinese couples rush to get pregnant before dreaded Year of the Sheep - The Washington Post
 
Old 05-20-2014, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Bright lights Baked Ziti
491 posts, read 1,334,912 times
Reputation: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse44 View Post
If it's any comfort, I also don't undertand why everytime someone points out that it is a stupid shortsighted idea that there is a huge industry out of exploiting something superficial, somebody points out something of the past that you, or nobody at present had any control over. I agree with you about the ivory. Do you understand supply and demand? Of course if you buy something and understand where it comes from (the face of elephants), you are partly responsible for its destruction.

You can't just say the west did it first so therefor it's not a problem. That's not an argument. These aren't animals that can keep up with somethng like this population wise. It's like you have all these 'THE ECONOMY > everything else' people who never stop to think about the consequences of something if they get a quick fix now.
I agree. Just to put it in present day perpesctive, if Germany tries to stop Assad from the massacre in Syria through sanctions, and Assad argues that Nazi Germany massacred millions of people then nothing will get done to stop it.
 
Old 05-20-2014, 02:00 PM
 
Location: in here, out there
3,064 posts, read 5,620,705 times
Reputation: 5109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
how human elephants are
What?
 
Old 05-20-2014, 07:42 PM
 
1,102 posts, read 1,676,803 times
Reputation: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
I dunno man: "East Asians: Jekyll And Hyde" versus "The Ivory Trade in China" or something like that... I can see where it could be misconstrued as a slam against an entire group, considering that "Jekyll and Hyde" is a famous story about a two-faced, monstrous psychopath. Also, what you posted is about China and the Chinese, not East Asia.

I find it difficult to believe that they could somehow ascertain that 85% of a country of nearly a billion and a half people support the ivory trade; there's no polling body like the Pew who have access to the population in the way that they have in the West, and the majority of China's population is rural and in areas that are more difficult for private enterprises to poll.


I bought a traditionally-carved scene of Chang-e ascending to the moon made from camel bone. Items like this are popular in China, and 99.99% of them are made from the bones of camels, cows, yaks, etc. You can buy tusks made from walrus. Smaller pieces are made from tagua nut, or ivory palm seeds.

Also worth noting: the piece I got cost about 3,000 yuan, or $500. This is considerably more than most Chinese people make in a month, and it's for camel bone, which is basically worthless on the world market. They had a very small piece made from real ivory that came with government certification papers stating it was made fifty years ago, and it cost 12,000 yuan, or about $2,000, which is more than many Chinese make in a year. I don't believe that 85% of China is any position to buy such things, especially when cars and property are much bigger aspirations.
Definitely agree there is no way 85% of the people in China can afford ivory. They need to sell their kidneys just to be able to afford those prices. There's been news that a Chinese boy sold his kidney so he can buy an iPhone and an iPad, but no news anyone doing that for ivory.
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