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Old 05-05-2014, 08:46 AM
 
1,110 posts, read 974,349 times
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It is just part of China. Maybe it can participate in the Olympics as Taiwan Province of China

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
CCP's collapse doesn't necessarily lead to an extensive famine.CCP is a gross political black hole that does not respect basic human rights whatsoever.It's not like they have been doing nice stuffs to the world.
And it's completely understandable for Taiwanese wanting CCP to collapse.What would you feel if there's a major power nearby and has always been trying to annex you?It's not like I am a big fan of UN or I expect Taiwan to suddenly become as powerful as Japan or as reputable as Canada if we gain independence,but the truth is PRC has long been suppressing our international status by pressuring other countries.
When the SARS was raging,Taiwan was a serious infected area,however China pressured WHO to not aiding Taiwan,and that's not the only example,there has been a ton actually.
We attend the Olympics by the name of Chinese Taipei,what kind of name is that?
We barely attend any kind of international organizations,if we want we need China's "consent" or it'll pressure other countries to boycott us.
Would the US do the same things to Taiwan?I don't think so.
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Taipei
8,868 posts, read 8,336,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gen2010 View Post
It is just part of China. Maybe it can participate in the Olympics as Taiwan Province of China
Wikipedia is always your friend honey.
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:18 AM
 
10,839 posts, read 14,622,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
CCP's collapse doesn't necessarily lead to an extensive famine.CCP is a gross political black hole that does not respect basic human rights whatsoever.It's not like they have been doing nice stuffs to the world and their people.

And it's completely understandable for Taiwanese wanting CCP to collapse.What would you feel if there's a major power nearby and has always been trying to annex you?It's not like I am a big fan of UN or I expect Taiwan to suddenly become as powerful as Japan or as reputable as Canada if we gain independence,but the truth is PRC has long been suppressing our international status by pressuring other countries.

When the SARS was raging,Taiwan was a serious infected area,however China pressured WHO to not aiding Taiwan,and that's not the only example,there has been a ton actually.

We attend the Olympics by the name of Chinese Taipei,what kind of name is that?

We barely attend any kind of international organizations,if we want we need China's "consent" or it'll pressure other countries to boycott us.

Would the US do the same things to Taiwan?I don't think so.

And what's with the sudden myth of Taiwan being a sovereign part of China?We may be in the future,but not now.
Not famine, but definitely a long period of chaos and stagnation. Why do you want that to happen? It is not just bad for China, but bad for the world. Do you know how many countries large depends on the growth of China? Where will Australia's iron ore be sold to? Italy's luxury products? America's cars and heavy machineries? For Christ's sake, even Washington would hate to see a sudden collapse of the CCP. You are just talking out of childish resentment here. Nobody will gain anything here, includeing Taiwan. Have any idea of Taiwan's economic tie with mainland China?

China at least for the time being, has zero desire to annext Taiwan. It knows it won't happen and the international community won't allow it. Its bottom line is there is no outright independence. Status quo is what is preferred until a long term solution is found. I happen to think it is a more practical way.

As to the SARS case, it is not so much China pressured the WHO not to offer aid to Taiwan. It is more about the fact that WHO doesn't recognize Taiwan as a country so it can't, just like Hawaii can't independently ask for WHO help.

Of course you think Taiwan is and should be a country - I kind of agree as it is a de facto one, but officially it is not. Has the Taiwan government officially declared independence from China? Ask your friend Washington if it recognizes Taiwan as a country first.
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Taipei
8,868 posts, read 8,336,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Not famine, but definitely a long period of chaos and stagnation. Why do you want that to happen? It is not just bad for China, but bad for the world. Do you know how many countries large depends on the growth of China? Where will Australia's iron ore be sold to? Italy's luxury products? America's cars and heavy machineries? For Christ's sake, even Washington would hate to see a sudden collapse of the CCP. You are just talking out of childish resentment here. Nobody will gain anything here, includeing Taiwan. Have any idea of Taiwan's economic tie with mainland China?

China at least for the time being, has zero desire to annext Taiwan. It knows it won't happen and the international community won't allow it. Its bottom line is there is no outright independence. Status quo is what is preferred until a long term solution is found. I happen to think it is a more practical way.

As to the SARS case, it is not so much China pressured the WHO not to offer aid to Taiwan. It is more about the fact that WHO doesn't recognize Taiwan as a country so it can't, just like Hawaii can't independently ask for WHO help.

Of course you think Taiwan is and should be a country - I kind of agree as it is a de facto one, but officially it is not. Has the Taiwan government officially declared independence from China? Ask your friend Washington if it recognizes Taiwan as a country first.
Honestly I couldn't care less what'd affect the world if China collapses.It's not like relying on China's market is a healthy thing for countries all over the world.
Get over it,the reason why Taiwan's economy is so full of **** right now is because of the hollowing-out.All the enterprises have gone to China and the entrepreneurs have since been publicly supporting our disgusting government for stronger ties with China.Completely relying on China economically will eventually lead to unification,and that's the least thing I'd like to see.

You have no idea if China has any desire to annex Taiwan,from a Taiwanese prospective,they have every bit of ambition to.If they have no intention,what's with the cross strait agreement on services?They want us to be even more dependent on China economically so we'd have no room to say no to them.That's exactly what happened to Hong Kong after CEPA was signed.
And I don't really think anyone would actually take any action if China actually swallows us,maybe some "sanctions" like what they have been doing to Russia.Like you said every country in the world has been depending on the growth of China.Why would they offend China for us?

Like I said,SARS was not the only case,921 earthquake and 88 flood were another two examples of China blocking foreign aids to Taiwan.

And my "myth" was directly referring to gen2010,not you.


Anyway China won't collapse,it is pure day-dreaming for Taiwanese,and maybe Tibetans and Hong Kongers.
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:08 AM
 
10,839 posts, read 14,622,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Honestly I couldn't care less what'd affect the world if China collapses.It's not like relying on China's market is a healthy thing for countries all over the world.
Get over it,the reason why Taiwan's economy is so full of **** right now is because of the hollowing-out.All the enterprises have gone to China and the entrepreneurs have since been publicly supporting our disgusting government for stronger ties with China.Completely relying on China economically will eventually lead to unification,and that's the least thing I'd like to see.

You have no idea if China has any desire to annex Taiwan,from a Taiwanese prospective,they have every bit of ambition to.If they have no intention,what's with the cross strait agreement on services?They want us to be even more dependent on China economically so we'd have no room to say no to them.That's exactly what happened to Hong Kong after CEPA was signed.
And I don't really think anyone would actually take any action if China actually swallows us,maybe some "sanctions" like what they have been doing to Russia.Like you said every country in the world has been depending on the growth of China.Why would they offend China for us?

Like I said,SARS was not the only case,921 earthquake and 88 flood were another two examples of China blocking foreign aids to Taiwan.

And my "myth" was directly referring to gen2010,not you.


Anyway China won't collapse,it is pure day-dreaming for Taiwanese,and maybe Tibetans and Hong Kongers.
Honestly I understand your frustration, and if I were Taiwanese, I might feel the same. China as a country we know now doesn't have the best image in the world ( in terms of corruption, pollution, a long list of things), but unfortunately when the world becomes increasingly "globalized", even the richest countries can't be without a high growth China any more.

While you seem to want to have nothing to do with China, I want to remind you that the Chinese and the Taiwanese are still the same people, sharing largely the same culture, and also don't ignore the progress (noneconomic ones) that China is making for the past 30 years. People are enjoying more human rights, more freedom compared with the Mao era, and corruption and pollution are being dealt with, though not fast enough. We shouldn't too hasty in dismiss everything China does (as many many westerners tend to do).

You are Taiwanese, and for how many years Taiwan has been "democratic"? Wasn't there a period Taiwan was as corrupt as China is? China is leading in the right direction, and I think the best and most likely scenario is for China to become increasingly like Taiwan; and when that days comes, God knows, most Taiwanese might want to unite with a freer China.

And if that doesn't happen, I hope the two countries can form a US-Canada kind of friendly relationship - same culture, same people, same language, same history, two countries with differences.

Don't be too cozy with the US though. If might look like a friend with some high morals, but it is not. It acts nice only because you are useful to it for other purposes, not precisely because the two have a lot in common. As I mentioned many times on this forum, the US is a close ally with Saudi Arabia, a country with possibly the worst human rights on earth, and Washington doesn't seem to mind whatsoever.
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Old 05-05-2014, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Taipei
8,868 posts, read 8,336,655 times
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Yeah I get your points.China has made some significant progress over the years,they have internet access to a certain extent and Chinese People are now nowhere near as isolated as let's say North Korea.But,there are still A LOT to be desired.And I don't really think the progress will keep going in these few years.Xi is quite scary,the freedom of speech is already very poor in China,now it seems to be shrinking even more(I think there are news about the even stronger censorship.The activists have been arrested one after another)

And yes the democracy of Taiwan is cliff-hanging as this (fake) democracy has only been lasting for less than 2 decades,so it's very fragile.Judging from the current situations across the strait,as far as the democratization is concerned,I think there's no way China will be having one any time soon.Maybe in 2050,though.Actually I still seriously doubt this,USSR dissolved and some of the countries controlled by Moscow during Cold War are doing very fine now(Czech Republic,Poland etc.),but the biggest part that remained(Russia) is still hardly a democratic country.China has 13 times more population than Russia so I'm not very optimistic about it.
EVEN IF one day China becomes as free as the westerners,I'm not sure if people want to unite with the free China or just keep the way we are.We are born as Taiwanese,not Chinese(ethnically yes,but in terms of nationality,not really)
But if that day eventually comes,the problem would be easy to solve though,a referendum could easily cover that up.

And yeah I know the US only cares about themselves lol.I don't even think they'd defend Canada if one day a random crazy country suddenly invades the latter lmfao.Maybe they will,but that'd only because Canada is just right next to them,not because they consider Canada as their brother,XDDD.

Last edited by Greysholic; 05-05-2014 at 11:59 AM..
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:58 PM
 
9,255 posts, read 9,679,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Yeah I get your points.China has made some significant progress over the years,they have internet access to a certain extent and Chinese People are now nowhere near as isolated as let's say North Korea.But,there are still A LOT to be desired.And I don't really think the progress will keep going in these few years.Xi is quite scary,the freedom of speech is already very poor in China,now it seems to be shrinking even more(I think there are news about the even stronger censorship.The activists have been arrested one after another)

And yes the democracy of Taiwan is cliff-hanging as this (fake) democracy has only been lasting for less than 2 decades,so it's very fragile.Judging from the current situations across the strait,as far as the democratization is concerned,I think there's no way China will be having one any time soon.Maybe in 2050,though.Actually I still seriously doubt this,USSR dissolved and some of the countries controlled by Moscow during Cold War are doing very fine now(Czech Republic,Poland etc.),but the biggest part that remained(Russia) is still hardly a democratic country.China has 13 times more population than Russia so I'm not very optimistic about it.
EVEN IF one day China becomes as free as the westerners,I'm not sure if people want to unite with the free China or just keep the way we are.We are born as Taiwanese,not Chinese(ethnically yes,but in terms of nationality,not really)
But if that day eventually comes,the problem would be easy to solve though,a referendum could easily cover that up.

And yeah I know the US only cares about themselves lol.I don't even think they'd defend Canada if one day a random crazy country suddenly invades the latter lmfao.Maybe they will,but that'd only because Canada is just right next to them,not because they consider Canada as their brother,XDDD.
Essentially all superpowers are "bullies". The US, Russia and maybe China. Russia still wants to get Crimea back after so many years.

People from different parts of China have their own strong "identity" too. If someone mentions he's from Sichuan, we immediately know he's different from Beijingers and Cantonese in thousands of ways. Taiwanese will not lose their identity or pride even if they are reunified with China. In most provinces of China, people speak their own dialect/language even more than people in Taiwan do.

"Democracy" is not the ultimate goal either, no matter what the media says. There can be better systems (which China does not have now of course).
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Old 05-06-2014, 01:17 PM
 
10,839 posts, read 14,622,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Essentially all superpowers are "bullies". The US, Russia and maybe China. Russia still wants to get Crimea back after so many years.

People from different parts of China have their own strong "identity" too. If someone mentions he's from Sichuan, we immediately know he's different from Beijingers and Cantonese in thousands of ways. Taiwanese will not lose their identity or pride even if they are reunified with China. In most provinces of China, people speak their own dialect/language even more than people in Taiwan do.

"Democracy" is not the ultimate goal either, no matter what the media says. There can be better systems (which China does not have now of course).
Exactly.

Everyone is like "China is becoming a bully" or "russia is such a bully", while completely ignoring the fact that the West lead by the US is the world's biggest bully ... but since the west is our ally, I guess it simply doesn't matter what they do to other countries.

Agree with your point about democracy too. Are people being completely brainwashed into thinking that democracy is the perfect political system and every country eventually will have to adopt it otherwise it is just wrong and bad? Things are not that simple. You can't just assume democracy is the best way of doing things and force it upon other countries. Every country has the right to try something difference and find out the best system that work for them. They don't necessarily have to adopt the western style democracy which proved to have so many flaws that don't need to be explained here (think about the two parties in the US).

The worst part of western democracy is that voters simply use their votes as a leaverage to get what they want, often out of pure selfish interest, instead of doing the right/best thing for the country/city. If a policy creates a net benefit for oneself but a large net loss for the economy, so be it. THis is why political parties in the world are becoming more and more spending oriented - all the subsidies, all the benefits, all the nice pensions etc, since who doesn't like having more privilege and who cares about fiscal responsibility? As long as I get some, I will vote for you!

This is exacerbated by the fact the the pure social benefit receivers get to vote too (while contributing nothing) and no surprise they will ALWASY vote for the biggest spender, irrespective of other factors. Who will the pensioners vote for? Whoever claims to increase their pension benefits. Who will the social aid receivers vote for? whoever promised to give them more free cash. Do you expect them to care anything else other than "what I can get"?

And most voters are not intelligent enough to read through the history and complicated economic data. Instead, they vote based on the highly reheased messages politicians deliver, often misleading and even deceiving. Some even vote based on who is "likable". For example, in the US, has there been a president who is divorced? Among all, Reagen is the only He is the only US president to have been divorced. This is so because Americans like family men although being a family man has nothing to do with one's ability to run a country, and many presidents' marriage is just a sham but they will never divorce just for the image.

I myself have no confidence in today's democracy system. It will collapse sooner or later without being substantially revised and improved. To regard it as a standard for all countries in the world as if it is indispensable is simply idiotic.
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Old 05-06-2014, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Taipei
8,868 posts, read 8,336,655 times
Reputation: 7380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Essentially all superpowers are "bullies". The US, Russia and maybe China. Russia still wants to get Crimea back after so many years.

People from different parts of China have their own strong "identity" too. If someone mentions he's from Sichuan, we immediately know he's different from Beijingers and Cantonese in thousands of ways. Taiwanese will not lose their identity or pride even if they are reunified with China. In most provinces of China, people speak their own dialect/language even more than people in Taiwan do.

"Democracy" is not the ultimate goal either, no matter what the media says. There can be better systems (which China does not have now of course).
What about this,people from different parts of USA/Australia/UK have their own strong identity too,if someone mentions he's from Texas/Tasmania/Scotland,we immediately know he's different from New Yorkers/people from Sydney/English in thousands of ways.Canadians/New Zealanders/Irish will not lose their identity or pride even if they are unified with USA/Australia/UK.
That's about as ridiculous as it sounds.

And sure democracy has millions of problems,and there might be trillions of better things than democracy,but the lack of freedom of speech,dictatorship,and disgusting air pollutions are not some of them.
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Old 05-06-2014, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Taipei
8,868 posts, read 8,336,655 times
Reputation: 7380
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Exactly.

Everyone is like "China is becoming a bully" or "russia is such a bully", while completely ignoring the fact that the West lead by the US is the world's biggest bully ... but since the west is our ally, I guess it simply doesn't matter what they do to other countries.

Agree with your point about democracy too. Are people being completely brainwashed into thinking that democracy is the perfect political system and every country eventually will have to adopt it otherwise it is just wrong and bad? Things are not that simple. You can't just assume democracy is the best way of doing things and force it upon other countries. Every country has the right to try something difference and find out the best system that work for them. They don't necessarily have to adopt the western style democracy which proved to have so many flaws that don't need to be explained here (think about the two parties in the US).

The worst part of western democracy is that voters simply use their votes as a leaverage to get what they want, often out of pure selfish interest, instead of doing the right/best thing for the country/city. If a policy creates a net benefit for oneself but a large net loss for the economy, so be it. THis is why political parties in the world are becoming more and more spending oriented - all the subsidies, all the benefits, all the nice pensions etc, since who doesn't like having more privilege and who cares about fiscal responsibility? As long as I get some, I will vote for you!

This is exacerbated by the fact the the pure social benefit receivers get to vote too (while contributing nothing) and no surprise they will ALWASY vote for the biggest spender, irrespective of other factors. Who will the pensioners vote for? Whoever claims to increase their pension benefits. Who will the social aid receivers vote for? whoever promised to give them more free cash. Do you expect them to care anything else other than "what I can get"?

And most voters are not intelligent enough to read through the history and complicated economic data. Instead, they vote based on the highly reheased messages politicians deliver, often misleading and even deceiving. Some even vote based on who is "likable". For example, in the US, has there been a president who is divorced? Among all, Reagen is the only He is the only US president to have been divorced. This is so because Americans like family men although being a family man has nothing to do with one's ability to run a country, and many presidents' marriage is just a sham but they will never divorce just for the image.

I myself have no confidence in today's democracy system. It will collapse sooner or later without being substantially revised and improved. To regard it as a standard for all countries in the world as if it is indispensable is simply idiotic.
And sure US is a big big bully,but as far as Taiwan is concerned,China is our biggest problem,that's a regional thing.Just like for Ukrainians,Russia is a much more despicable bully than US is to them
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