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Old 05-06-2014, 11:25 PM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,612,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
What about this,people from different parts of USA/Australia/UK have their own strong identity too,if someone mentions he's from Texas/Tasmania/Scotland,we immediately know he's different from New Yorkers/people from Sydney/English in thousands of ways.Canadians/New Zealanders/Irish will not lose their identity or pride even if they are unified with USA/Australia/UK.
That's about as ridiculous as it sounds.

And sure democracy has millions of problems,and there might be trillions of better things than democracy,but the lack of freedom of speech,dictatorship,and disgusting air pollutions are not some of them.
I mentioned the regional difference only because some people argue they want to keep the "Taiwan" identity. I tell you that in China people from different provinces have very strong regional identity too. So that argument per se is invalid.

As long as USA/Australia/UK are concerned, their history is totally different. There is no analogy at all.
Not to mention neither of them wants to unify each other.
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Old 05-06-2014, 11:28 PM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,612,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
And sure US is a big big bully,but as far as Taiwan is concerned,China is our biggest problem,that's a regional thing.Just like for Ukrainians,Russia is a much more despicable bully than US is to them
It's only because you are a 鐵杆台獨.
For other people in Taiwan, China is not just a big bully. Some may even consider it their mother land.

Don't try to fool other people. Different people in Taiwan can have very different views about China. You are not in the position to speak for all.
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Old 05-06-2014, 11:36 PM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,612,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post

The worst part of western democracy is that voters simply use their votes as a leaverage to get what they want, often out of pure selfish interest, instead of doing the right/best thing for the country/city. If a policy creates a net benefit for oneself but a large net loss for the economy, so be it. THis is why political parties in the world are becoming more and more spending oriented - all the subsidies, all the benefits, all the nice pensions etc, since who doesn't like having more privilege and who cares about fiscal responsibility? As long as I get some, I will vote for you!

This is exacerbated by the fact the the pure social benefit receivers get to vote too (while contributing nothing) and no surprise they will ALWASY vote for the biggest spender, irrespective of other factors. Who will the pensioners vote for? Whoever claims to increase their pension benefits. Who will the social aid receivers vote for? whoever promised to give them more free cash. Do you expect them to care anything else other than "what I can get"?

And most voters are not intelligent enough to read through the history and complicated economic data. Instead, they vote based on the highly reheased messages politicians deliver, often misleading and even deceiving. Some even vote based on who is "likable". For example, in the US, has there been a president who is divorced? Among all, Reagen is the only He is the only US president to have been divorced. This is so because Americans like family men although being a family man has nothing to do with one's ability to run a country, and many presidents' marriage is just a sham but they will never divorce just for the image.

I myself have no confidence in today's democracy system. It will collapse sooner or later without being substantially revised and improved. To regard it as a standard for all countries in the world as if it is indispensable is simply idiotic.
I agree. It is a very complicated issue.
Western democracy works the best in protestant countries especially Anglo countries, which is not a coincidence. Many things are involved: tradition, life style, biological traits... This issue is too sensitive and I do not bother to expand it.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:49 AM
 
Location: American Expat
2,189 posts, read 4,718,307 times
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Botswana has a higher per capita GDP than China. China's 6700 Dollars vs. Botswana's 7100 Dollars per capita. They live in huts, live expectancy is barely above 50, and a whopping 25% of the population has HIV. Yet, they are still better off than China - in terms of GDP per capita.
China just has a crap load of people. If I make 20 Dollars per hour vs. 25 people making 1 Dollar per hour, they are, collectively, 'richer' than me. That's just the same with China.
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Old 05-07-2014, 02:04 AM
 
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China's life expectancy is higher than many developed nations. China has one of the best infrastructure in the world, much better than USA or EU countries. China has one of the best education system (check the PISA results each year, China consistently ranks No. 1)

Nominal GDP per capita is as misleading as it can get. A doctor visit costs only 2 USD while in USA it is 200 USD. A cab drive is about 2 USD in China, while in USA it is about 20 USD.

A family of 3 in China can get a decent life while their average GDP per capita is 6700 USD (20K USD for a family of 3). They can even hire a nanny.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Glucorious View Post
Botswana has a higher per capita GDP than China. China's 6700 Dollars vs. Botswana's 7100 Dollars per capita. They live in huts, live expectancy is barely above 50, and a whopping 25% of the population has HIV. Yet, they are still better off than China - in terms of GDP per capita.
China just has a crap load of people. If I make 20 Dollars per hour vs. 25 people making 1 Dollar per hour, they are, collectively, 'richer' than me. That's just the same with China.
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Old 05-07-2014, 02:07 AM
 
1,011 posts, read 629,936 times
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That is very true. The western democracy system does not work very well in Asian countries. Even Japan has problems, with a very unstable government. (changing its prime minister every couple of years)

The so-called democracy is Taiwan is a joke. And India is a mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
I agree. It is a very complicated issue.
Western democracy works the best in protestant countries especially Anglo countries, which is not a coincidence. Many things are involved: tradition, life style, biological traits... This issue is too sensitive and I do not bother to expand it.
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Old 05-07-2014, 02:32 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,129,771 times
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^^^Seriously these comments should be spread to the the whole forums and let people have a good laugh.
I now truly understand the saying "When Chinese people mock on democracy,it's like eunuchs talking about the disadvantages of sex"
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Old 05-07-2014, 02:32 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,259,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Honestly I understand your frustration, and if I were Taiwanese, I might feel the same. China as a country we know now doesn't have the best image in the world ( in terms of corruption, pollution, a long list of things), but unfortunately when the world becomes increasingly "globalized", even the richest countries can't be without a high growth China any more.

While you seem to want to have nothing to do with China, I want to remind you that the Chinese and the Taiwanese are still the same people, sharing largely the same culture, and also don't ignore the progress (noneconomic ones) that China is making for the past 30 years. People are enjoying more human rights, more freedom compared with the Mao era, and corruption and pollution are being dealt with, though not fast enough. We shouldn't too hasty in dismiss everything China does (as many many westerners tend to do).

You are Taiwanese, and for how many years Taiwan has been "democratic"? Wasn't there a period Taiwan was as corrupt as China is? China is leading in the right direction, and I think the best and most likely scenario is for China to become increasingly like Taiwan; and when that days comes, God knows, most Taiwanese might want to unite with a freer China.

And if that doesn't happen, I hope the two countries can form a US-Canada kind of friendly relationship - same culture, same people, same language, same history, two countries with differences.

Don't be too cozy with the US though. If might look like a friend with some high morals, but it is not. It acts nice only because you are useful to it for other purposes, not precisely because the two have a lot in common. As I mentioned many times on this forum, the US is a close ally with Saudi Arabia, a country with possibly the worst human rights on earth, and Washington doesn't seem to mind whatsoever.
That may largely be true, but the Taiwanese are a product of Taiwan. They're as Taiwanese as Americans are American. Quite a lot have aboriginal blood, and thus would not exist without that aboriginal component. Whether China considers them the 'same people' should have no bearing on whether it's part of China. Some might claim Chinese Singaporeans are the 'same people' but they are culturally distinct.

Same as Minnan, yes. Mandarin though I suppose is here to stay.

Taiwan's history is different. It was occupied by Austronesian-speaking peoples for thousands of years before others arrived. It's history is more akin to that of Australia or North America than China.
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Old 05-07-2014, 02:43 AM
 
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Your ancient ancestry from Minnan makes you think that Minan is very distinct. That is very funny. Any region in China has its own culture, as distinct as Minan. At least the majority in Minan is Han Chinese. A lot of regions in China are not even having Han majority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
That may largely be true, but the Taiwanese are a product of Taiwan. They're as Taiwanese as Americans are American. Quite a lot have aboriginal blood, and thus would not exist without that aboriginal component. Whether China considers them the 'same people' should have no bearing on whether it's part of China. Some might claim Chinese Singaporeans are the 'same people' but they are culturally distinct.

Same as Minnan, yes. Mandarin though I suppose is here to stay.

Taiwan's history is different. It was occupied by Austronesian-speaking peoples for thousands of years before others arrived. It's history is more akin to that of Australia or North America than China.
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Old 05-07-2014, 02:53 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,259,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gen2010 View Post
Your ancient ancestry from Minnan makes you think that Minan is very distinct. That is very funny. Any region in China has its own culture, as distinct as Minan. At least the majority in Minan is Han Chinese. A lot of regions in China are not even having Han majority.
The ancient statue of Baiyue/Minyue occupied present-day Fujian:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/6019/namviet200bc.jpg

Many words in the Min languages have pre-Chinese substrate, Austronesian/Austroasiatic/Tai-Kadai etc. The large-scale migrations from the Han, and Tang, diluted a lot of that, and Sinified the area, but the area was historically on the fringe of Chinese civilisation until the Tang dynasty.

If you hear Min it sounds nothing like Mandarin, closer to SEA languages...
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