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Old 05-05-2014, 07:52 PM
 
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Why do people blame China all the time for North Korea being such an awful state? I don't believe the Chinese ever asked the North Koreans to be cruel nor did they ever ask the North Koreans to pursue a detrimental economic system. All of these issues can be solved by the North Koreans yet they choose not to solve it. While the Chinese give them aid and support, they never attach any strings to the aid and support they give them so there is nothing stopping the North Koreans from changing their system.
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
No they don't, they are just better at bending the truth. A lot of kids in North Korea do not even attend school and what about old people or kids during the 90s. What about the ones born in concentration camps. Also the number is 99 percent, not a more reasonable number like 95 percent, which makes it really obvious that it is government propaganda.

Not sure if it is true, but according to some sources you are considered literate in North Korea if you can write the presidents name. They are not literate, they just know a few Korean characters.
What you know about north Korea is from western media, and you don't think you are biased at all?
China was as poor as India in the 1980s, if not worse. But Chinese people of my generation have a much higher literacy rate than Indians. Even ordinary farmers under 40 can all read and write.
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:14 PM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,704,092 times
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Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
What you know about north Korea is from western media, and you don't think you are biased at all?
China was as poor as India in the 1980s, if not worse. But Chinese people of my generation have a much higher literacy rate than Indians. Even ordinary farmers under 40 can all read and write.
I'm way less biased than north korean propaganda at least, which you seem to base yourself on. The literacy rate is not 99 percent, that is just the government trying to make themselves look good.

We know that orphanage children do not recieve education, we know that they have concentration camps and there are about 200,000 inmates, we know that people get sent to prison for what your family has done, we know that people who try to escape get shot on sight. How widespread it is can be discussed, but no matter what North Korea is still a disgusting state and the regime should be overthrown.

And I have no clue why you mention China. The main reason China is better today is because it gave up socialism, except in name. North Korea still hasn't.
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
I'm way less biased than north korean propaganda at least, which you seem to base yourself on. The literacy rate is not 99 percent, that is just the government trying to make themselves look good.

We know that orphanage children do not recieve education, we know that they have concentration camps and there are about 200,000 inmates, we know that people get sent to prison for what your family has done, we know that people who try to escape get shot on sight. How widespread it is can be discussed, but no matter what North Korea is still a disgusting state and the regime should be overthrown.

And I have no clue why you mention China. The main reason China is better today is because it gave up socialism, except in name. North Korea still hasn't.
You are not quite good at making arguments. China has been a socialist country for a long time, and retained many such components in the 1980s, so it is valid to compare China with India.


North Korea propaganda and western propaganda are both garbage with respect to north Korea. But your speculations are even worse.
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Iowa
2,776 posts, read 3,073,705 times
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Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
Why do people blame China all the time for North Korea being such an awful state? I don't believe the Chinese ever asked the North Koreans to be cruel nor did they ever ask the North Koreans to pursue a detrimental economic system. All of these issues can be solved by the North Koreans yet they choose not to solve it. While the Chinese give them aid and support, they never attach any strings to the aid and support they give them so there is nothing stopping the North Koreans from changing their system.
China and Russia, or should I say Mao and Stalin, are to blame for the evil dynasty in NK getting off the ground in the first place. They sent in troops, air power and equipment to stop the US from making the whole of Korea a free country in the Korean War. Mao provided the model for Kim Sung to set his up his regime and run it the way he did. In fact, Mao had a school of sorts, for communist leaders around the world to come learn the techniques of oppression, he carried the flame of Stalinism long after Stalin was dead. He would teach Ceausescu, Castro, Ho Chi Mihn, any leaders of the communist world that would come and listen to him at the "Mao Cultural Center". Mao would instruct them on how to squeeze the most out of the population back in their home countries, using the most ruthless methods possible, and how to set up a mafia style security forces that would stay loyal to "the leader".

NK is in China's back yard and nobody will do anything to liberate NK because China has too many troops and enough military might, as well as nukes, that would make any efforts at liberation a nightmare mission to carry out. NK also has a large standing army of their own. China has NK preserved in a bottle for their amusement, China may have changed, but it does not exert any influence on NK to change. If the place is ever to be liberated, it has to come from China. They are capable of doing it, but don't want NK to become another western competitor by joining up with SK, so they do nothing. They also know an invasion with intent to annex NK (what China may like do if they could get away with it) would not go over well on the world stage, bad for business. Chinese leadership looks on NK with nostalgia, China has not yet adopted western political standards, especially the human rights aspect. This may change as Christianity is spreading within China, perhaps that is the only hope for the prisoners in NK to become free, when China will not tolerate it anymore. If not, NK will be just the way it now, 200 years from now, if China wants it that way.
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Old 05-05-2014, 11:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
You are not quite good at making arguments. China has been a socialist country for a long time, and retained many such components in the 1980s, so it is valid to compare China with India.
Yes, in the 1980s China was still quite socialist, but it doesn't support your theory that socialist countries has better literacy rates. In 1980 their literacy rate was 66.5%, while Taiwan had a literacy rate of 92.9%.

Yes, it was higher than India (40.6%) even though their GDP per capita was similar, but you are looking at it from a wrong angle. Socialism didn't boost the literacy rate of China, it held back the economy.

http://www.unescap.org/stat/data/sta...f/t8_dec04.pdf
(Remember these are reported by their own government, hence they are not totally trustworthy.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
North Korea propaganda and western propaganda are both garbage with respect to north Korea. But your speculations are even worse.
If you believe North Korean propaganda is garbage, then why did you use North Korean governmental statistics for literacy rates (99%), and then post it here and claim it is a fact. Not only did you trust North Korean propaganda, but you expect us to believe it as well.

Socialist governments are not famous for their superiour education system, but they are famous for lying their asses off. They can do that, because they can kill/imprison anyone who tries to verify the numbers.

Actually my main source is North Korean refugees and their stories. You think they are all lying? Of course I know not everyone is experiencing the same as them, but their stories should not happen at all in a country who respect human rights.

Last edited by Camlon; 05-05-2014 at 11:31 PM..
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Yes, in the 1980s China was still quite socialist, but it doesn't support your theory that socialist countries has better literacy rates. In 1980 their literacy rate was 66.5%, while Taiwan had a literacy rate of 92.9%.

Yes, it was higher than India (40.6%) even though their GDP per capita was similar, but you are looking at it from a wrong angle. Socialism didn't boost the literacy rate of China, it held back the economy.

http://www.unescap.org/stat/data/sta...f/t8_dec04.pdf
(Remember these are reported by their own government, hence they are not totally trustworthy.)



If you believe North Korean propaganda is garbage, then why did you use North Korean governmental statistics for literacy rates (99%), and then post it here and claim it is a fact. Not only did you trust North Korean propaganda, but you expect us to believe it as well.

Socialist governments are not famous for their superiour education system, but they are famous for lying their asses off. They can do that, because they can kill/imprison anyone who tries to verify the numbers.

Actually my main source is North Korean refugees and their stories. You think they are all lying? Of course I know not everyone is experiencing the same as them, but their stories should not happen at all in a country who respect human rights.

Geez. I'm talking about my generation, who were young kids in the 1980s. China was way poorer than Taiwan in the 1980s so it has nothing to do with my argument (if you forgot what my argument is, check my post).

I lived in a socialist system and you did not. So I do not trust you. Sorry.
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:21 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,252,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
Why do people blame China all the time for North Korea being such an awful state? I don't believe the Chinese ever asked the North Koreans to be cruel nor did they ever ask the North Koreans to pursue a detrimental economic system. All of these issues can be solved by the North Koreans yet they choose not to solve it. While the Chinese give them aid and support, they never attach any strings to the aid and support they give them so there is nothing stopping the North Koreans from changing their system.
Well the Chinese fought in the Korean War to try and take over the whole of the Korean peninsula. Can you imagine if the entire Korean peninsula was the 'Democratic People's Republic' of Korea? How bad was North Korea back then compared to now?
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
Well the Chinese fought in the Korean War to try and take over the whole of the Korean peninsula. Can you imagine if the entire Korean peninsula was the 'Democratic People's Republic' of Korea? How bad was North Korea back then compared to now?
Communism was really a progressive thing back then, especially for poor third world countries. The ideology does not work, but at that time people did not really know.
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:59 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,704,092 times
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Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Geez. I'm talking about my generation, who were young kids in the 1980s. China was way poorer than Taiwan in the 1980s so it has nothing to do with my argument (if you forgot what my argument is, check my post).

I lived in a socialist system and you did not. So I do not trust you. Sorry.
I criticized you for the claim that North Korea has a literacy rate of 99 percent, not that comment. If you lived in a socialist country you should know better than trust offical statistics from North Korea.

It is true that socialist countries has a higher literacy rates than countries at the same economic level, but that is because socialism is holding the economic level down, not because socialism is boosting the educational level.

That is why I mentioned Taiwan. In the 1950s Taiwan and China was not too different, but after 30 years with capitalism the educational level was far superior to China who had endured 30 years of socialism.
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