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Old 05-08-2014, 09:14 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,350,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm31828 View Post
Yeah, that is a discussion even here with residents/citizens within the U.S., you have those who prefer suburbs and those who prefer more urban areas and the lifestyle that goes with them, lots of arguments even in other sections of the forum here about that and which is better. I think a lot of people don't find the suburbs boring if they are not into the bar/pub, party type of lifestyle where they always need lots of things going on. My wife (and I) the suburbs, part of what she (and her visiting family from China) loves about where we live (typical suburb, about a half hour outside of downtown Seattle) is how peaceful it is, how visually appealing it is- nicely manicured lawns, lots of trees, housing developments all (mostly) look really nice, just a very clean, tidy look and feel to it all.
So that particular aspect of it is definitely a matter of preference, and I know regardless of the lower living standards one has in China, that they may still not like the suburban lifestyle here if they prefer to be "in the middle" of the action as one would be in a dense urban area.
People have very different preferences so my point is the traditional Qol ranking is meaningless because it imposes the same standard for everyone. Your idylic suburban life for example, sounds suffocating for me, but apparently it is the lifestyle many families strongly prefer, and who knows, maybe at a certain age, I might change as well.

In the mean time, even people in North America seem to be moving back to the city. Toronto itself is building dozens of highrise condos in the downtown core, notorious DTLA is being revitalized and part of it becomes an attractive place to live. San Fran's property price is skyrocketing as people are moving back to the city.

There are pros and cons associated with highly dense walkable living and quiet and safe low density suburbs. One can choose whatever that suits his need, but it is wrong to say "this has high QoL than that" just because I have live on a tree lined street with a big yard. I couldn't care less about a big yard.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:14 AM
 
1,035 posts, read 640,796 times
Reputation: 303
Shanghai has about 200k foreign residents. It is still small if compared with NYC or London, but it is still quite significant. There are some residential areas made completely western style, like Biyun, looking exactly like a american village, and Gubei, more like a high end HK quarter

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
True, but there are quite many who truly love life in China and don't want to live.
A former boss of mine move to Shanghai from LA 10 years ago and never intended to go back to her "quiet suburban life in Monterey Park doing nothing but raising kids". Another, in his late 50s, have done business in China for more than a decade and is loving all the fun Shanghai offers that his Ohio hometown can't.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,805 posts, read 13,430,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gen2010 View Post
Chinese chose america for many reasons. One of the most important one is higher pay.

If they can make equal amount of money, I would bet 90% of the chinese would return to Shanghai or Beijing. I regularly visit overseas Chinese forums. A lot of them would accept half pay in order to get back to China.
So basically, if it wasn't for the superior QOL, opportunities,and relative ease with which to obtain them in the US, they wouldn't leave China.

Wait... does China offer everything the West does in spades, or...?

Many if not most people around the globe would emigrate to other places if it meant they had better opportunities. That's simply the case with Chinese immigration to the West, many Chinese people are of the opinion that they can achieve more overseas than they can at home and many of them do (again, I'm sure that you guys would be the first to parade around the attainment levels of overseas Chinese given the opportunity). There are millions of Chinese-Americans who have the means and the connections with which to move back to China, and don't. There are far more Chinese people who emigrate to the West than Westerners who emigrate to China every year. Certainly there are some who would love to return if given the opportunity for the same standard of living, which already renders some of your previous arguments moot (you seem to be in a more moderate mood tonight), but there are obviously many millions more who choose, have chosen, or are choosing to stay abroad when given the chance.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,805 posts, read 13,430,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
True, but there are quite many who truly love life in China and don't want to live.
A former boss of mine move to Shanghai from LA 10 years ago and never intended to go back to her "quiet suburban life in Monterey Park doing nothing but raising kids". Another, in his late 50s, have done business in China for more than a decade and is loving all the fun Shanghai offers that his Ohio hometown can't.
^ well yeah, Shanghai vs Suburban Ohio that's like a Formula 1 car vs. an old Rambler.

That said I love it here in GZ and will likely be here for some time. I've met other foreigners in the same boat, ones who have been here for awhile or want to be. It's a great place, and I love it for all its realities and foibles, all the same that I do for other cities I love.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,813 posts, read 5,184,373 times
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^I really admire your patience for responding their posts when they are all clearly laughable.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:43 AM
 
1,035 posts, read 640,796 times
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There are more immigration from West Europe to North America each year, not vice versa. Immigration alone does not speak much about life of quality. Many people want a change of life, and it tends to happen from a dense populated area to countries like US, Canada and Australia.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
So basically, if it wasn't for the superior QOL, opportunities,and relative ease with which to obtain them in the US, they wouldn't leave China.

Wait... does China offer everything the West does in spades, or...?

Many if not most people around the globe would emigrate to other places if it meant they had better opportunities. That's simply the case with Chinese immigration to the West, many Chinese people are of the opinion that they can achieve more overseas than they can at home and many of them do (again, I'm sure that you guys would be the first to parade around the attainment levels of overseas Chinese given the opportunity). There are millions of Chinese-Americans who have the means and the connections with which to move back to China, and don't. There are far more Chinese people who emigrate to the West than Westerners who emigrate to China every year. Certainly there are some who would love to return if given the opportunity for the same standard of living, which already renders some of your previous arguments moot (you seem to be in a more moderate mood tonight), but there are obviously many millions more who choose, have chosen, or are choosing to stay abroad when given the chance.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:47 AM
 
1,035 posts, read 640,796 times
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Another point to raise, do not generalise the west. Chinese normally only immigrate to places like North America or Austrilia. Not so much to the west europe or Japan. North America and Australia are not only attrative to Chinese immigrants but to the other nations as well, including people from UK, France or Germany.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
So basically, if it wasn't for the superior QOL, opportunities,and relative ease with which to obtain them in the US, they wouldn't leave China.

Wait... does China offer everything the West does in spades, or...?

Many if not most people around the globe would emigrate to other places if it meant they had better opportunities. That's simply the case with Chinese immigration to the West, many Chinese people are of the opinion that they can achieve more overseas than they can at home and many of them do (again, I'm sure that you guys would be the first to parade around the attainment levels of overseas Chinese given the opportunity). There are millions of Chinese-Americans who have the means and the connections with which to move back to China, and don't. There are far more Chinese people who emigrate to the West than Westerners who emigrate to China every year. Certainly there are some who would love to return if given the opportunity for the same standard of living, which already renders some of your previous arguments moot (you seem to be in a more moderate mood tonight), but there are obviously many millions more who choose, have chosen, or are choosing to stay abroad when given the chance.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,805 posts, read 13,430,333 times
Reputation: 11338
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen2010 View Post
Another point to raise, do not generalise the west. Chinese normally only immigrate to places like North America or Austrilia. Not so much to the west europe or Japan. North America and Australia are not only attrative to Chinese immigrants but to the other nations as well, including people from UK, France or Germany.
I'm certainly aware of that, it's more a response to your previous posts where you lump the West as a whole into one amorphous blob while only holding China to the standards of Shanghai.

You seem to be taking a much more moderate stance at the moment, versus over the last few days. I noticed that you, Bot, and Penny are much more sensible and moderate when you talk among eachother (as much as you can in an open forum) than when you address non-overseas Chinese folks.

The US, Canada, and Australia are preferable to Chinese people over continental Europe because they are non-homogeneous societies that were founded by immigrants and are generally more accepting towards them. Look at the SGV, East of LA: after I first moved here, I recognized a lot of bottled/canned/jarred Chinese foodstuffs by brand because I could get them at any supermarket there. Typical Chinese fare is about 90% similar to what I could get at any Chinese-owned Chinese restaurant in the greater LA or SF areas; the endless blathering over how "you can't get REAL Chinese in the US" has ended up being, at the same time, disappointingly and reassuringly wrong. I'd go out to a night spot in Alhambra with my ex and be the only white person on the block. It makes sense that a Chinese person would choose to live there over, say, Austria or Colombia or ______ where their local community would be comprised of maybe a few dozen to a few hundred people versus a few hundred thousand. Add to that the fact that these countries are, whether anyone likes it or not, prosperous and offer plenty of opportunity, and of course they're going to prefer to move there.

Also, one last point... Japan isn't part of the West.
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Old 05-08-2014, 10:11 AM
 
1,035 posts, read 640,796 times
Reputation: 303
Japan is a developed economy and has pretty much the same political and idealogical views. in that sense, it is a western. West does not mean the Anglo world.

As I mentioned, North America and Australia are attractive to immigrants all over the world due to many reasons. they are just immigrant countries, and not very densely populated.

A lot guys from UK moved to US, but that does not mean US is much superior than UK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
I'm certainly aware of that, it's more a response to your previous posts where you lump the West as a whole into one amorphous blob while only holding China to the standards of Shanghai.

You seem to be taking a much more moderate stance at the moment, versus over the last few days. I noticed that you, Bot, and Penny are much more sensible and moderate when you talk among eachother (as much as you can in an open forum) than when you address non-overseas Chinese folks.

The US, Canada, and Australia are preferable to Chinese people over continental Europe because they are non-homogeneous societies that were founded by immigrants and are generally more accepting towards them. Look at the SGV, East of LA: after I first moved here, I recognized a lot of bottled/canned/jarred Chinese foodstuffs by brand because I could get them at any supermarket there. Typical Chinese fare is about 90% similar to what I could get at any Chinese-owned Chinese restaurant in the greater LA or SF areas; the endless blathering over how "you can't get REAL Chinese in the US" has ended up being, at the same time, disappointingly and reassuringly wrong. I'd go out to a night spot in Alhambra with my ex and be the only white person on the block. It makes sense that a Chinese person would choose to live there over, say, Austria or Colombia or ______ where their local community would be comprised of maybe a few dozen to a few hundred people versus a few hundred thousand. Add to that the fact that these countries are, whether anyone likes it or not, prosperous and offer plenty of opportunity, and of course they're going to prefer to move there.

Also, one last point... Japan isn't part of the West.
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Old 05-08-2014, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,805 posts, read 13,430,333 times
Reputation: 11338
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen2010 View Post
Japan is a developed economy and has pretty much the same political and idealogical views. in that sense, it is a western. West does not mean the Anglo world.
It doesn't mean explicitly "Anglo," but Japan certainly is not Western, with its homogeneous population and sensibilities, its non-Judeo/Christian spiritual history and traditions. Mexico and Brazil aren't Anglo but they are Western. Japan is not.

So, how about the safety and quality of Chinese foodstuffs?

I haven't gotten food poisoning yet, but the popularity of Western-originating ingredients is quite popular with those who can afford it...
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