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Old 05-09-2014, 05:57 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,132,830 times
Reputation: 4566

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
I have been to China severall times. Hong Kong maybe 5 times for a total of 30 days. Visit Shenzhen, and Chengdu briefly. Beijing around 30 days as well and Tianjin around a half year.


In every single country there is some things you cannot do, and in China it is not legal to campaign for democracy. That is obviously be the case when it is not a democracy today. The ones in power do not want to lose it.

China is not perfect and I am not sure if democracy would help ordinary Chinese people.



Making a progress does not mean it is good enough, or that things like this doesn't happen. Previously people didn't even dare to talk in public, because they were scared that someone would report them. Even wearing a dress could signal that you supported capitalism and you would get punished.

Not only are people not scared of talking in public at all. Now you can talk openly about democracy or any other issue against the government and don't get in much trouble. The ones who get in trouble are people who try to campaign for their issue.


Those luxury brands are only on the main street. If you go off the main street and into the streets of Mong Kok then you won't see too many. Most of those shops are local. Also, I don't understand why you think tourists are a bad thing. Without tourists then Hong Kong would have a drastic reduction in exports. That would force Hong Kong to devalue their currency and everything imported becomes more expensive.

But it is true that Hong Kong has a problem with property prices, but as you admitted they have put on extra restrictions on foreigners to buy property. Also, even if Hong Kong remained part of UK, Chinese people would still be allowed to buy property in Hong Kong.
I actually got so bored of fighting with these Chinese that I probably should avoid posting in these threads about China(it was fun in the beginning though),but since you're obviously a sane person...

About the activists being arrested,those scholars and lawyers did not "campaign" for anything,all they did was "discussing" the Tiananmen incident since it's the 25th anniversary of the tragedy,in a little room,then took a picture.

You can make a judgement yourself if this picture qualifies as a "campaign" or not.

Then a few days(or probably right tomorrow) later,most of them got arrested and some of them are not even released yet,as the report said.

Yes things in China are obviously more liberal then before,as you said citizens can talk about these stuffs.Sure there has been some progress,but has the progress come to a halt?Or should we said Xi has once again reinforced the control of the freedom of speech?That's what this news is about.

As for Hong Kong,I was trying to bring up the serious problems its "inhabitants" have been facing since the signing of CEPA.There have been many HKers talking about how they feel about HK nowadays than before,and they often consider the stronger economic ties between China do more negatives than positives.But most of those interviews are in Chinese and the posters here obviously can't read them.

Tourists are important,sure,but when I said that Macau is way too over-crowded,that was a "personal opinion".In less than 30 km square,580000 inhabitants are crowded enough,28 million tourists just sound suffocating for me.

Now the defenders of China are gonna say that I'm again badmouthing China,lol.
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Old 05-09-2014, 07:38 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,706,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
I actually got so bored of fighting with these Chinese that I probably should avoid posting in these threads about China(it was fun in the beginning though),but since you're obviously a sane person...

About the activists being arrested,those scholars and lawyers did not "campaign" for anything,all they did was "discussing" the Tiananmen incident since it's the 25th anniversary of the tragedy,in a little room,then took a picture.

You can make a judgement yourself if this picture qualifies as a "campaign" or not.

Then a few days(or probably right tomorrow) later,most of them got arrested and some of them are not even released yet,as the report said.
No matter how big it was, they were idiots. Many of those people were famous activists against the government. And then they gather together for a meeting close to the 25 year anniversary of the Tiananmen Square to discuss the Tiananmen Square incident.

From a Chinese government perspective, they may be discussing how to turn people against the government, and to inform people about what happened in 1989, and that's precisely what the government is trying to avoid. Any sensible person would stay far away from a meeting like that. Of course it is not right to arrest them, but the ones in power want to remain in power and the way to do so is to arrest everyone who could cause trouble.

If they just wanted to discuss it, then just invite them over for dinner. As I said, in China you can discuss sensitive issues, just don't make a big deal of it.


Quote:
Yes things in China are obviously more liberal then before,as you said citizens can talk about these stuffs.Sure there has been some progress,but has the progress come to a halt?Or should we said Xi has once again reinforced the control of the freedom of speech?That's what this news is about.
Maybe it has come to an halt, but that is because the government is unable to give anything more. Giving more would give them a road to democracy.

I am currently more interested in other reforms than democratic reforms. For instance I was very happy to hear when they liberalized the one child policy and the prison policy.


Quote:
As for Hong Kong,I was trying to bring up the serious problems its "inhabitants" have been facing since the signing of CEPA.There have been many HKers talking about how they feel about HK nowadays than before,and they often consider the stronger economic ties between China do more negatives than positives.But most of those interviews are in Chinese and the posters here obviously can't read them.

Tourists are important,sure,but when I said that Macau is way too over-crowded,that was a "personal opinion".In less than 30 km square,580000 inhabitants are crowded enough,28 million tourists just sound suffocating for me.

Now the defenders of China are gonna say that I'm again badmouthing China,lol.
Hong Kong do not have much option. They were given away by the British, and would have to campaign much harder for independence in 1997. I am sure most would prefer to stay with the UK or become independent.

But I don't think having tourists is a negative thing. Macau without tourists would have been extremely poor. Without Casinos Macau is just a city with no industry and terrible infrastructure. They don't even have a subway.

Macau problem is not the tourists. Macau problem is that they rely too much on casino tax and hence don't get enough tax revenue. What they should do is to impose a 10% gst. That would bring a lot more revenue from tourists which the government could use to help their people.
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Old 05-09-2014, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,132,830 times
Reputation: 4566
Umhum,cool.
I shouldn't have responded to you,lol.
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Old 05-09-2014, 07:55 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,706,138 times
Reputation: 1714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Umhum,cool.
I shouldn't have responded to you,lol.
If you think everyone on this forum are insane (your word), and not worth responding, then why are you here.

Create a blog, and don't allow comments, then you will never have to see anyone defend China again.
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Old 05-09-2014, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,132,830 times
Reputation: 4566
Not really,I think you are much brighter than them,but to think those activists are idiots just rubs me in the wrong way I suppose.
I don't understand how "inviting them to dinner" and discussing with just a handful of people in a small chamber would have so much a difference that if they do the latter,they should've expected to be arrested.

I apologize if I offended you though.
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Old 05-09-2014, 08:10 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,706,138 times
Reputation: 1714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Not really,I think you are much brighter than them,but to think those activists are idiots just rubs me in the wrong way I suppose.
I don't understand how "inviting them to dinner" and discussing with just a handful of people in a small chamber would have so much a difference that if they do the latter,they should've expected to be arrested.

I apologize if I offended you though.
Apology accepted. They are idiots because they got caught, not because of their message.

The difference is huge. If you just invite them for dinner then the government won't know and won't care. If you start to organize secret meetings with influential activists, then it is likely the government will find out.

Also, if you organize secret meetings then you need to cover your tracks. That means no electronic communication and all organization is done at people's homes.
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Old 05-09-2014, 08:25 AM
 
448 posts, read 500,265 times
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There are increasing number of Mainland Chinese in most countries and territories than before. Tourists in many places used to be mainly from developed countries. Now more Mainland Chinese, Russians and Indians can afford to travel.

There are both pros and cons with large number of tourists in a place.

Macau has a lot of revenue from gambling and betting tax is their main income. Macau has a lot of problems to deal with too much gamblers. They know gambling is a bad activity that lead to many social problems but they still allow many casinos to open, as the money is big. Macau's gambling lead to problems in other places. Mainland China suffers as many Mainland Chinese lose money in Macau and Mainland Chinese launder their illegal money or bribes in Macau too. Mainland China actually dislike Macau for their gambling and the problems that affect Mainland China.

People in Macau do not really like working in casinos. They work there for the higher wage only. The job market is not as diversified as in other places. Macau already receive a lot from betting tax, they don't need GST to get more revenue. Currently there is a hotel tax for hotel guests in Macau. Most taxes are paid indirectly by tourists than locals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
But I don't think having tourists is a negative thing. Macau without tourists would have been extremely poor. Without Casinos Macau is just a city with no industry and terrible infrastructure. They don't even have a subway.

Macau problem is not the tourists. Macau problem is that they rely too much on casino tax and hence don't get enough tax revenue. What they should do is to impose a 10% gst. That would bring a lot more revenue from tourists which the government could use to help their people.
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Old 05-09-2014, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,132,830 times
Reputation: 4566
I suppose they thought it was fine,since...really,there were barely 10 people that attended the meeting,so they probably thought making it a secret wasn't all that necessary.

Still the detaining was just terrible.I heard that the political scene in China is kinda unstable at the moment because of Xi's strike at corruptions of the members within CCP(or couse not just about this action,I think the splits within the party are also the reasons) ,so the controlling of freedom of speech is even stricter now.

Btw about HK,yeah I'm pretty sure they would rather to be independent or return to the UK.
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Old 05-09-2014, 08:41 AM
 
448 posts, read 500,265 times
Reputation: 170
People in China do not admire Macau for being rich, but greatly look down on it for being a den of gambling and prostitution. The riches are not due to hard work and education. Macau has nothing to be proud of.

HK will still receive many Mainland tourists no matter it was returned to China or not. Mainland Chinese started to get richer after economic reforms in late 1970s, they can afford to travel and shop when they get richer.
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Old 05-09-2014, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,132,830 times
Reputation: 4566
Allowing them to speculate the real estate market is another different story tbh.Once CEPA was signed,the Chinese enterprises with the funds from CCP can afford the most expensive houses,then the price of real estate in HK and Macau raged to the highest heaven,subsequently brought up the price of everything else.
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