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Old 06-05-2014, 04:05 AM
 
164 posts, read 220,301 times
Reputation: 84

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Laugh out loud.


In the most extreme cases,some Chinese do believe that nobody died in June 4th,there are also some that know there were casualties and think what the goverment did was right.Not only the not accepting protestors' requests part,but also the massacre part.
I feel very difficult to read your words. I just read a few posts from you, however, you are using numerous "dissident", "nationalist", "radical", "massacre", "dictatorship", and "trolling". You are simply criticizing/labeling someone as "nationalist". The method you are using is very looking like Mao were using in Red Revolution..

The Chinese government won't change anything as same as Holder won't resign even though numerous calling from public. Numerous far-right groups aiming for "stop the Obamacare", however, those requests were ignored completely. That is how world works.

When I reading Chomsky's book, I feel extremely different and believe that this is totally considered as "BS" by Americans. However, he is right..

I want to share a great review from his book about propaganda, "the difficulty will come from a refusal to accept what is going on; a refusal to accept that Santa was invented to sell more stuff; and that United States history books are full of feel-good distortions of what really goes on."
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Old 06-05-2014, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,777 posts, read 5,136,215 times
Reputation: 4571
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhgz View Post
I feel very difficult to read your words. I just read a few posts from you, however, you are using numerous "dissident", "nationalist", "radical", "massacre", "dictatorship", and "trolling". You are simply criticizing/labeling someone as "nationalist". The method you are using is very looking like Mao were using in Red Revolution..

The Chinese government won't change anything as same as Holder won't resign even though numerous calling from public. Numerous far-right groups aiming for "stop the Obamacare", however, those requests were ignored completely. That is how world works.

When I reading Chomsky's book, I feel extremely different and believe that this is totally considered as "BS" by Americans. However, he is right..

I want to share a great review from his book about propaganda, "the difficulty will come from a refusal to accept what is going on; a refusal to accept that Santa was invented to sell more stuff; and that United States history books are full of feel-good distortions of what really goes on."
Umhmmmmmmm,let's see.

"Dissident"-I don't think I've ever used this word.If I did it was probably quoted from some other articles.

"Nationalist"-I labeled you guys as nationalists because you are!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen2010 View Post
well, for anyone who do not even recognize oneself as Chinese, it is bit difficult to understand the national pride for a chinese and how important a unifying China is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
"Red China is surrounded by hostile neighbors because its a bully"...

That's only because China isnt quite as strong as the US yet. Once it is, then its neighbors will act very much like Mexico and Canada. Problem solved.
I planned to post one post per user but this one is too good to give up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Bettafish...

why are you arguing with these people? The Tibetans are lucky they hadn't gone the way of the Sioux and the Cherokees, and the Taiwanese will figure out sooner or later that the only reason they are even a viable economy today is that they are part of the Chinese economic orbit. Given China's economic sophistication, there is no need to use the PLA to bring taiwan to its sense. Just shut off the economic spigot and the "taiwan miracle", or what's left of it, will end. There will be no independence for Xizhang, Taiwan or Xinjiang, period. Who cares what these powerless people think?

Taiwan, Xizhang and Xinjiang should not be China's focus, because they are already in the bag. What China should focus on is all of the South Sea, the East Sea, and the whole of Liu Qiu to the east. And all of Central Asia all the way to Iran to the west. China should touch Old Persia, because that was the extent of the Tang dynasty. Think about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
apparently you can't read a map properly, or can't even tell where Korea and Taiwan are, before finger pointing about the China business.

Well, most Americans can't. What a surprise.
He was saying that Taiwan and Korea weren't part of the Japanese Empire,on this map.


Finally you
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhgz View Post
You look like a South Korean. Obviously, S. Korea's claim on Yanbian or Northeast part of China is not valid. Those claims are just a great dream. By the way, Korea is used to be part of China. Could China central government have claim that S. Korea is part of China?

For DPRK, I am suspecting that if NK really collapsed sometimes in the future, I doubt that Chinese will take over N. Korea and use Hong Kong model. They will grant New N. Korea more and more stuff and take control on Foreign Affairs/Defense/Legal System and relieve all power to N. Koreans.

Please be material on international issues, China and Japan are two key powers in East Asia. South Korea cannot be a vital role in East Asia regardless how strong S. Korea economy is.. Of course, I believe that Chinese have a goodwill to S. Korea to have a better and stronger economy.

And let's see what other posters think about you guys
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tdiva View Post
You sound like a ultra nationalist Chinese troll. Dream on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
The China boosters here are a weird bunch; they seem to be OK with talking about China's problems among one another or someone who's sympathetic to China, but as soon as someone who's not Chinese weighs in with the same opinion, they go on the offensive.

CD China Booster 1:"China is still a developing nation and it has all the same problems as any other developing nation. There are problems with the water and air, pollution is rampant and food poisoning is a problem."
CD China Booster 2: "Yes, you are correct. China needs to tackle these issues before it can progress to its full potential and enter the strata of European and American nations."
Other CD Poster: "Yeah, it sounds like China has a lot of issues with pollution and food safety. I hope they get their act together."
CDCB1: "Oh, it sounds bad there? Yeah, well, America was just as polluted when it was developing. It's still the most polluting country on the face of the planet, and you're infinitely more likely to get shot in America than die in China from food poisoning."
CDCB2: "So you 'heard' that it's bad in China and read a few articles on CNN and now you think you have the right to talk down about China? China's infrastructure is better than the US' or even most cities in Europe. London and NYC look like big dumps compared to Shanghai, even small Chinese cities have better infrastructure than the finest Western cities."
Lol I enjoy writing these.
There are a lot more to offer,these kind of stuffs are all over the Asia forum,very entertaining.

"Radical"-I don't think there's any more explanation needed.

"Massacre"-Thousands of people died in Tiananmen incident,unless a.you think nobody died,it was totally made up.Or b.you think the casualties weren't quite enough,there ought to be more.

"Dictatorship"-Since when was PRC not a dictatorship?

"Trolling"-Like the "nationalists" thing,you are trolls,all of you,and I love trolling back,it's fun.

So my "method" is not really a "method" of anything,really,I was just being honest.

Btw about the Obamacare,the difference between China and USA is that in USA you can actually "complain" about it,but in China,you'd get arrested,simple as that.Not that I agree with the American healthcare system though,it's indeed pretty awful.

About Chomsky.History is written by humans,of course one's state of mind would most definitely affect the POV of history or scholarly works one writes.You think Chomsky is right,that's great,but when you are convinced by his saying,you're also absorbed into his historical and philosophic concepts and values.
By your logic,in order not to be "brainwashed" by the Western media,we should all read Global Times right?
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Old 06-05-2014, 09:16 AM
 
Location: NYC
2,806 posts, read 3,047,244 times
Reputation: 4790
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhgz View Post
The Chinese government won't change anything as same as Holder won't resign even though numerous calling from public. Numerous far-right groups aiming for "stop the Obamacare", however, those requests were ignored completely. That is how world works.

When I reading Chomsky's book, I feel extremely different and believe that this is totally considered as "BS" by Americans. However, he is right..

I want to share a great review from his book about propaganda, "the difficulty will come from a refusal to accept what is going on; a refusal to accept that Santa was invented to sell more stuff; and that United States history books are full of feel-good distortions of what really goes on."
I believe it must be your nationalistic fervor that does not allow you to read anything critical about China without mentioning something bad about the United States. In fact as an American, I'm well aware of all the issues we have in this country. However, this is a thread about China and Tiananmen Square. If you cannot have an honest discussion about the problems in your country without bringing up the problems in other countries as comparison, then you are a victim of propaganda.
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Old 06-05-2014, 04:25 PM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,283,905 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
What am I trying to achieve here?Well,nothing,except that I find the 25th anniversary of the event is worth discussing.It's a special number,and everybody is talking about it.

And I repeatedly mentioning how evil China is?As if I'm the only one here that badmouths China.Maybe you can give it a thought about why China is so unpopular among people.

As for the Nankin rape and massacre,it's already all over the place since Chinese people just won't shut up about it.And 2014 is not a anniversary of a special number of that specific tragedy anyway.
Look, I think you are a well educated guy that's why I reason with you.

Nobody denies the bad reputation of current China. Even the Chinese nationals criticize their country constantly. Talk to any Chinese, those who think China is fantastic versus those who considered it hopelessly corrupted is probably 1:5.

Plenty negative things about China but I am afraid the media propaganda, especially American (and Canadians one, many don't know) is out of proportion.

In 1989, the students protested peacefully against corruption, but later they were used and manipulated by special groups with different agendas, many with US assistance. Do you really think the government all of sudden just started shooting defenseless students on hunger protest? Even the CCP is not that evil, or stupid.

First the students, then many others, factory workers, small business owners etc. It started peacefully but quickly turned into something else. Violence started and chaos created. Protesters, under some "leaders", started to break public infrastructure, blocking traffic and engaged in violent tussles. The government sent police and troops to maintain stability (every government will do), and inevitably violent clashes started to occur between protesters who become increasingly impatient and police/soldiers who were trying to contain the situation. It was not supposed to be violent but with the involvement of more and more people, including many extremists who wanted nothing but chaos and opportunists, who were more interested in taking advantage of the situation, everything got out of control.

Then casualties and death happened. Honestly I seriously doubt that the soldiers started killing the protesters. Many observers confirm that it were the peacekeeping soldiers who became victims first. A small group of angry mob probably started it. The dead soldiers were not only killed, but also burned and exposed in the public. Situation quickly escalated into large scale violence in Beijing and it worried the authorities, and the CCP eventually decided the crack down using military forced and ended it through bloodshedding - basically at all cost.

I am not defending the Chinese government for such an atrocity, but bear in mind that it is far more complicated than simply China killing hundreds of peaceful students - like most westerners tend to believe. Nothing is as simple as that. Given the situation, I still believe the Chinese government made the right decision, although lives were lost and the country will always be haunted by what happened.

I say it is the "right" decision doesn't mean I believe it is the best decision. However, in 1989, China just started to take off after decades of endless internal fight and nonsense. It would be extremely dangerous, and harmful to the vast majority of the population if such a path is suddenly ended and drastic changes, most likely anarchy and long term social unrest happened and persisted. By ending the riot and avoiding large scale chaos, the country was put back to the right track immediately- economic reform and development and therefore the 1B Chinese were able to improve their living standard within such a short period of time. There was a huge social cost but there probably was probably no other way.

Of course it is easy for outsiders to judge, because they don't have to live in China, and they don't have to suffer the consequences of chronic social unrest and poverty. They can simply point fingers and say “murder, slaughter, massacre" and keep vaunting their value, and I am sure US and its allies will keep doing that until their imaginary communist enemy collapses like the USSR and better become part of their system.

Speaking of the US, they definitely supported the protesters, not because they support democracy, but because they antagonize China as a "communist country". A fool would believe America support freedom and democracy in other countries - they couldn't care less. They only use it as a noble reason when it suits their national interest. Plenty of pro-freedom protests happened in Saudi Arab, Qatar, Bahrain, all those extreme dictatorship countries with the worse human right record, do you know what the US did? They sell weapons to those regimes to crush any protests, because those dictators are friends with Uncle Sam. Remember, the US and its allies don't give a rat's ass about freedom and democracy in other nations. Everything they do is solely for their neo-imperialism under various often noble disguise.

My baseline has always been: what's the point of democracy if you are stuck in poverty and don't even have decent roads to use and enough toilet to go to?
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Old 06-05-2014, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Jersey
2,300 posts, read 3,402,194 times
Reputation: 2038
The PRC has maintained its "mandate of Heaven", economic growth at the price of individual liberty and democracy. I don't necessarily disagree with the PRC clearing the square; however, they probably could have done it with the minimum loss of life.
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Old 06-05-2014, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Western Oregon
1,379 posts, read 1,276,740 times
Reputation: 1268
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhgz View Post
The Chinese government won't change anything as same as Holder won't resign even though numerous calling from public. Numerous far-right groups aiming for "stop the Obamacare", however, those requests were ignored completely. That is how world works.
What you don't seem to know is that even though there are loud protests from some Americans, most Americans prefer to keep Holder and Obamacare.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,783 posts, read 13,374,634 times
Reputation: 11313
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhgz View Post
I feel very difficult to read your words. I just read a few posts from you, however, you are using numerous "dissident", "nationalist", "radical", "massacre", "dictatorship", and "trolling". You are simply criticizing/labeling someone as "nationalist". The method you are using is very looking like Mao were using in Red Revolution..
From the wiki definition of "nationalism:"

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Almighty Wiki
There are various definitions for what constitutes a nation, however, which leads to several different strands of nationalism. It can be a belief that citizenship in a state should be limited to one ethnic, cultural, religious, or identity group, or that multinationality in a single state should necessarily comprise the right to express and exercise national identity even by minorities.[4] The adoption of national identity in terms of historical development has commonly been the result of a response by influential groups unsatisfied with traditional identities due to inconsistency between their defined social order and the experience of that social order by its members, resulting in a situation of anomie that nationalists seek to resolve.[5] This anomie results in a society or societies reinterpreting identity, retaining elements that are deemed acceptable and removing elements deemed unacceptable, in order to create a unified community.[5] This development may be the result of internal structural issues or the result of resentment by an existing group or groups towards other communities, especially foreign powers that are or are deemed to be controlling them
All the parts I bolded are things that the people in question have directly and consistently stated they believe in.

It's one of those "if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck..." situations. Sometimes, referring to someone as a "nationalist" is misplaced - patriotism or national pride is not the same as nationalism and the accusation can be inaccurately lobbed in an attempt to shut people down or discredit them. However, this is not one of those situations; these people are engaging in literally textbook nationalist behaviors, and thus they are nationalists.

Quote:
The Chinese government won't change anything as same as Holder won't resign even though numerous calling from public. Numerous far-right groups aiming for "stop the Obamacare", however, those requests were ignored completely. That is how world works.
While I understand the point you are trying to make, this is somewhat inaccurate. Democracy more or less holds that the will of the majority will be met, not that the will of every person will be met. The majority of the US elected a president that made healthacre reform part of his political platform, and a majority of Americans elected officials who affirmed the policy; as you said, that's just "how the world works" in this case... it is democracy functioning as it's supposed to, where dissent is (peacefully) overridden by the majority's will.

If a majority of Americans decided that Obamacare was horrible and that it needed to be stopped, then they'd begin to elect officials whose platforms involved dismantling it - many people did just that, but the majority's will overrode the minority's. In China, the government simply doesn't offer the people a chance to vote on any such issues of national direction. I am not weighing in on this being negative in practice, because the simple fact of the matter is that a) China has a government that functions as it does as a result of its own historical and cultural realities, and b) China's growth is a clear indicator that when instituted properly, a lack of bureaucratic red tape and political bickering can benefit the people. I think that the US' political system is an utterly mired mess and the melding of democracy with a deregulated free market has created what is basically a political oligarchy where democracy is only allowed to function within the confines that the lobbyists assign it.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Western Oregon
1,379 posts, read 1,276,740 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
a) China has a government that functions as it does as a result of its own historical and cultural realities, and b) China's growth is a clear indicator that when instituted properly, a lack of bureaucratic red tape and political bickering can benefit the people. I think that the US' political system is an utterly mired mess and the melding of democracy with a deregulated free market has created what is basically a political oligarchy where democracy is only allowed to function within the confines that the lobbyists assign it.
Brilliant. Right on.
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Old 06-06-2014, 08:37 AM
 
164 posts, read 220,301 times
Reputation: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodstockSchool1980 View Post
What you don't seem to know is that even though there are loud protests from some Americans, most Americans prefer to keep Holder and Obamacare.
Chomsky (You can google him about this political view) has a series of books about political views/propaganda. United States propaganda and history outlets usually fill with "feel-good" distortion of history in the education system. You'll commentators are not familiar with the Chomsky in the post because mainstream media never allow him to speak/elaborate his idea because his idea is totally contrary to "feel-good" mood.

Eastern and Western differences is not as beautiful as "culture differences". It is confliction between two culture systems. They cannot embrace each other and western culture system cannot accept the losing the leader position (while eastern culture will feel fine if there is a completely different culture system). US leads the world with military super-power (with extremely high defense spending). US wants to defend national strategic interest and control the world. However, Communist Party did not "obey" US order and will not obey the order in the future (KMT want to, but it was defeated). In the past century, US have cold war with USSR because USSR will challenge US at that time. Right now, China will take over helm of the largest economy on the world within 10 years. There will be another "cold war" within next 20 years because US cannot accept they are losing the leadership position. The public won't accept that their living standard will decline due to rising living standard of Chinese.

It is shocking to me to read the nasty side of history like Chomsky's book. You'll may never read it. Happy being blinded by media every day.
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Old 06-06-2014, 09:25 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,283,905 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhgz View Post
In the past century, US have cold war with USSR because USSR will challenge US at that time. Right now, China will take over helm of the largest economy on the world within 10 years. There will be another "cold war" within next 20 years because US cannot accept they are losing the leadership position. The public won't accept that their living standard will decline due to rising living standard of Chinese.
^ Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the chief nationa security goal of the US is to preclude the emergence of any potential global competitor. And ever since the fall of the USSR, the US rulling class has been seeking a substitute for the Cold War with which to justify its new imperial design - the War on Terror is nothing but a new mechanism to maintain its military dominance and economic hegemony. however, it will deny imperialism flatly but rather insists that everything the US does is to protect freedom, democracy and justice world wide. Unfortunately its allies who often need US protection have implicitly encouraged the US to act as both the judge and the executioner on world affairs, acknowledging the undisputed notion that the US is uniquely the benevolent force in the world and the US should be allowed to invade and attack any nation it considers dangerous.

On the other hand, the US has long supported terrorist groups worldwide whenever it serves its own imperialist design. Sadam Husein, Bin Laden etc were all supported by Washington when it served its imperial needs. Today, the US still supports the world's most atrocious dictators in the middle east, ignoring the principles it is supposed to advocate for. However, the American media, while always boasting about the independence, seldem care to tell the masses the whole truth of their government. For example, 911 is simplified to Americans as nothing but a heinous attack on the benelevant peace-loving US because terrorists hate the American freedom, democracy and prosperity, as providing more objective information and knowlege on the cause of the attack, which is far more complicated than people think, would be counter-productive. The media coverage after 911 was sadly unanimously distorting and nobody seems to come forword to question it. I remember once Ron Paul argued that how can other countries don't hate the US when we display our military forces all around the world, using violence whenever we see fit and meddle with internal affairs of every nation in the world? I applauded him for such exceptional valor, however, Bloomberg immediately retorted with a rather stern face "are you saying America had the 911 attack coming on its own" - it probably pleased most of the nationalistic American audiance because questioning the high morals of their noble country should not be accepted and the 911 story should have already been set in stone, with the US bearing absolutely no fault on its own. Any additional evidence or argument is redundant and vicious.

Last edited by botticelli; 06-06-2014 at 09:42 AM..
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