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Old 10-06-2014, 01:38 AM
 
6,722 posts, read 6,599,126 times
Reputation: 2386

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
No it isn't, cause NK would have been a failure regardless of the crisis in the 90s. You are simply making excuses.
No one denies N Korea is a failure. Geez. I mentioned the collapse NOT to prove N Korea is not a failure, but to explain why they suddenly went so bad in the 1990s: they lost a crucial trading partner, but was still sanctioned by the western world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
I didn't skip that part. I said North Korea received more aid from Soviet compared to what South Korea received from the US. If North Korea hadn't received so much aid, then their economy wouldn't been so dependent on the Soviet economy in the 90s.
Yes you did.
I already said the Soviets were not as capable as the US, so even if N Korea's economy relied on the Soviets 100% (which is not the case), the support was still not as functionally good as what South Korea (and Japan, and Taiwan) received from the US. The USSR was not as good as a supporter as the US. Even China abandoned them. Why can't you understand that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
But I also didn't skip the rest of what you wrote. You also answered his comment by talking about the collapse in the 90s. Then later you even admitted yourself it is not relevant. So why did you mention it?
No idea what you are talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Sure no countries are perfectly communist and no countries are perfectly capitalist, but you are trying to avoid my argument.

Those countries you listed are at place 130 in the ease of doing business ranking. The idea of capitalism is free transactions, not overregulated transactions.
Again, you are proposing your own theory, which is fine, but do not use it as an axiom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
If all you think the only requirement to be capitalism, is to believe in capitalism, then I have an answer for you. The reason they are poor is because they haven't implemented capitalism or anything similar.
I never said that. However, you claim whatever country with a failed economy is not capitalist, which is absurd.
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Old 10-06-2014, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,773 posts, read 5,114,752 times
Reputation: 4555
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIHS2006 View Post
Well said.

I have been predicting for some time now that the "People's Republic" would be gone by the early 2020s. I have also heard that the North Korean delegation meeting with South Korea at the end of the month may be willing to discuss unification. It seems that Kim Jong-Un is out of the picture ...

I as a person have never accepted the CCP as the legitimate leadership of China. To me that has always been the Republic of China/Taiwan. The CCP is one of the most brutal regimes on the planet.
Well, I'd be the happiest person on earth if CCP is gone with the wind, but why do you think KMT would've been better for China?

KMT only needed to run like 3% of the population of China in Taiwan, however from 1949 to 1970s/80s, their management was aggressively bad. People were literally dirt poor, they killed hundreds of thousands of Taiwanese people, and they forced them to pick up Mandarin and prohibited Japanese and Taiwanese- the prominent languages of Taiwan back in those days. They have never been democratic or transparent at all, not even today, in Taiwan, the so-called "beacon of democracy in Asia"(that's a load of crap tbqh). Chiang's regime was just as despicable as Mao, the only difference was that China had significantly more population to be killed so the number of casualties was significantly higher.

The reason that Taiwan seems to be "democratic and prosperous" is that there were many selfless men and women who fought for democracy and cared about this island, and there was a great president who responded to their quests(talking about Li here). Taiwan's democracy and liberty were most certainly not "given" by Republic of China or KMT, it was built on the bodies and blood of those noble souls.

I can guarantee that, if KMT wasn't beaten up by CCP back in 1949, and ROC still remained in China, Chinese people would've suffered just as much, if not more. Republic of China sucked since the day it was established. The central government was just stupid and greedy. One civil war came after another, the entire land was a big, big, BIG mess, so it was awfully easy for Japan to just jump into China's throat.

If ROC still remained to be the legimate authority in China, the only good thing they would've provided is that China wouldn't be a threat to the Western world or Japan nowadays. It would probably be poorer than India. Honestly, the whole China would probably fall into several pieces.

CCP is actually better for China(between the two of them, we'd never know how China'd be like if it was a robust democracy) as they actually did something clever to make many Chinese people richer, even though most of them have chosen to get the hell out of their motherland, or at least sent their kids away.
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Old 10-06-2014, 10:50 AM
 
2,557 posts, read 2,176,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
I can guarantee that, if KMT wasn't beaten up by CCP back in 1949, and ROC still remained in China, Chinese people would've suffered just as much, if not more. Republic of China sucked since the day it was established. The central government was just stupid and greedy. One civil war came after another, the entire land was a big, big, BIG mess, so it was awfully easy for Japan to just jump into China's throat.

If ROC still remained to be the legimate authority in China, the only good thing they would've provided is that China wouldn't be a threat to the Western world or Japan nowadays. It would probably be poorer than India. Honestly, the whole China would probably fall into several pieces.

CCP is actually better for China(between the two of them, we'd never know how China'd be like if it was a robust democracy) as they actually did something clever to make many Chinese people richer, even though most of them have chosen to get the hell out of their motherland, or at least sent their kids away.
I won't comment on Taiwan's democracy, as I have never lived there. As for CCP, their impact on China, Chinese culture, and Chinese civilization was irreversible. KMT was a corrupt regime pre-1949 with lots of factional fighting along with an ongoing civil war/Japanese occupation. However, the intensity of their oppression/persecution and impediments to free speech were nowhere near CCP's level. Chiang also implemented a number of reform programs and political purges pre-1949, but they were child's play when compared with:

- The CCP's Anti-Rightest Campaign (in a single year, over 770,000 people publicly executed for being "bourgeois" - back then simply being a small business owner or landlord would be reason enough to have you executed by the People's Court while your fellow neighbors watched and spat on your dead body)

- Great Leap Forward, which in 3 short years between 1959 and 1961, killed off 20-43 million of the civilian population. The casualty was greater than World War I and II combined. Even today, the CCP was unwilling to admit these atrocities due to their policy failures, and instead call this period "3 Years of Natural Disasters" in official history textbooks.

- Cultural Revolution, most likely the darkest 10-year period in the history of the entire Chinese civilization, with wide-spread destruction of historical sites, cultural heritages, and anything that represent pre-1949 China. Not only that, thousands of "Red Guard" groups formed local armed brigades and even assaulted the PLA Guangzhou Military District to extract weapons and engage in factional civil war, in order to demonstrate their love, faith, and unyielding loyalty to Chairman Mao. Between 1966-1969, China was essentially in a state of no government, no courts, while Red Guard brigades roamed the country looking for targets and "class enemies". Even doctors and other technical professionals were targeted as "bourgeois dogs", leaving the entire economy paralyzed for 3 years. For example, the Shanghai Municipal Government was essentially "overthrown" and replaced by a "People's Commune" in 1967, which got rid of the regular courts and other functional departments. During this time, China's former President and Party Secretary, the legendary revolutionary hero Liu Shaoqi, was caught by a group of Red Guards in Beijing, paraded on the street with his wife dressed as a prostitute, and locked up and left to die in a hole in Kaifeng City. Mr. Liu died a very painful death as he had cancer and received no treatment for a whole year. The scale of government-sanctioned mob atrocities is immense - imagine the president of a country like China being attacked by mobs on the street.
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Old 10-06-2014, 12:48 PM
 
25,059 posts, read 23,157,510 times
Reputation: 11619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Well, I'd be the happiest person on earth if CCP is gone with the wind, but why do you think KMT would've been better for China?

KMT only needed to run like 3% of the population of China in Taiwan, however from 1949 to 1970s/80s, their management was aggressively bad. People were literally dirt poor, they killed hundreds of thousands of Taiwanese people, and they forced them to pick up Mandarin and prohibited Japanese and Taiwanese- the prominent languages of Taiwan back in those days. They have never been democratic or transparent at all, not even today, in Taiwan, the so-called "beacon of democracy in Asia"(that's a load of crap tbqh). Chiang's regime was just as despicable as Mao, the only difference was that China had significantly more population to be killed so the number of casualties was significantly higher.

The reason that Taiwan seems to be "democratic and prosperous" is that there were many selfless men and women who fought for democracy and cared about this island, and there was a great president who responded to their quests(talking about Li here). Taiwan's democracy and liberty were most certainly not "given" by Republic of China or KMT, it was built on the bodies and blood of those noble souls.

I can guarantee that, if KMT wasn't beaten up by CCP back in 1949, and ROC still remained in China, Chinese people would've suffered just as much, if not more. Republic of China sucked since the day it was established. The central government was just stupid and greedy. One civil war came after another, the entire land was a big, big, BIG mess, so it was awfully easy for Japan to just jump into China's throat.

If ROC still remained to be the legimate authority in China, the only good thing they would've provided is that China wouldn't be a threat to the Western world or Japan nowadays. It would probably be poorer than India. Honestly, the whole China would probably fall into several pieces.

CCP is actually better for China(between the two of them, we'd never know how China'd be like if it was a robust democracy) as they actually did something clever to make many Chinese people richer, even though most of them have chosen to get the hell out of their motherland, or at least sent their kids away.
Grey, there is no government around the world that was ever "nice" for its entire history. In my country, slavery was ok with the government for over 100 years. South Korea used to have an oppressive government right after the Korean War. But, they are a free democracy now. Should we discount that and have the South rejoin the North under Juche? No. And, what is your weird obsession with wanting to be colonized by Japan? That's just as weird as the Filipinos on here wanting the Spanish to come back You complain about Taiwan being so bad, try living in Puerto Rico. You'd fly back to Taiwan in a heartbeat

Last edited by theunbrainwashed; 10-06-2014 at 01:01 PM..
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Old 10-06-2014, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Taipei
6,773 posts, read 5,114,752 times
Reputation: 4555
^Wut? I didn't say a word about wanting Japanese to come back in my post at all. I barely mentioned Japan in that post to be honest, except that Japanese was the predominant language of Taiwan decades ago and that Japan invaded China. Idk where did you get this impression.
And I didn't particularly bash Taiwan in that post either, did I? Didn't I say some nice things about those noble souls?

Anyway yeah CCP has been terrible, I'm aware of that. They have always been terrible and will always be terrible until its breakdown. My point here is that I don't see how KMT would've been any better for China, that's all.
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Old 10-06-2014, 11:50 PM
 
25,059 posts, read 23,157,510 times
Reputation: 11619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
^Wut? I didn't say a word about wanting Japanese to come back in my post at all. I barely mentioned Japan in that post to be honest, except that Japanese was the predominant language of Taiwan decades ago and that Japan invaded China. Idk where did you get this impression.
And I didn't particularly bash Taiwan in that post either, did I? Didn't I say some nice things about those noble souls?

Anyway yeah CCP has been terrible, I'm aware of that. They have always been terrible and will always be terrible until its breakdown. My point here is that I don't see how KMT would've been any better for China, that's all.
Oh ok, I was mixing up what you were saying with what Hermosaaa always says. Nevermind.

Put it this way. With the KMT, you had a one-party state that was authoritarian. But, you had protests that led to full democracy in 1990. With the CCP, this happened too in 天安門廣場. But, instead of democracy, they got tanks and bullets, as you know, and more censorship even to today. See the difference? The CCP was good in the beginning, relatively speaking anyway. The KMT was corrupt as all hell. The CCP brought China back to its former glory, so that's why I say it has outlived it's usefulness. Now the KMT should take it back, especially since Taiwan has also followed a similar track of development like the PRC. But, I don't know which place is more "developed" at this point. All I know for sure, is that people in Taiwan have a hell a lot more money than the PRC
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Old 10-07-2014, 12:43 AM
 
6,722 posts, read 6,599,126 times
Reputation: 2386
^ A culture is hard to change. What kind of government you have is more or less determined by what kind of people you have, especially for a big country where external forces can hardly work.

Maybe China will figure out a unique way.
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Old 10-07-2014, 09:29 AM
 
2,557 posts, read 2,176,151 times
Reputation: 1810
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
Oh ok, I was mixing up what you were saying with what Hermosaaa always says. Nevermind.

Put it this way. With the KMT, you had a one-party state that was authoritarian. But, you had protests that led to full democracy in 1990. With the CCP, this happened too in 天安門廣場. But, instead of democracy, they got tanks and bullets, as you know, and more censorship even to today. See the difference? The CCP was good in the beginning, relatively speaking anyway. The KMT was corrupt as all hell. The CCP brought China back to its former glory, so that's why I say it has outlived it's usefulness. Now the KMT should take it back, especially since Taiwan has also followed a similar track of development like the PRC. But, I don't know which place is more "developed" at this point. All I know for sure, is that people in Taiwan have a hell a lot more money than the PRC
I'm not going to make hypothetical assumptions of what would happen had KMT ruled China instead of CCP. Anything could happen in that alternate time continuum.

The thing we can confirm is that life under the KMT under the late 1920s to 1930s was a hell lot better than life under CCP between 1949-1976. Also, it's important to note that civil society and the press enjoyed a relatively high degree of freedom under the ROC during the 20s, 30s, and 40s, not dissimilar to HK today. Chiang may be the de facto dictator of a one-party state, but the ROC had a lively press culture where newspapers frequently blasted his government with front page headlines, very much like what the HK press is doing to CY Leung today. During that time, China also had a very lively youth political culture that mobilized many college students in mass anti-government/anti-war/anti-Chiang protests, often aided by an active civil society and other political parties like the CCP (before they came to power).

I think this is a very important distinction between CCP and KMT and their approach to governance. Even today, it is still unimaginable for any Chinese newspaper to directly critique the government, and topics pertaining to CCP/Xi Jinping/Politburo are strictly taboo. Even anonymous Weibo posts online are being actively deleted by CCP's massive propaganda machine.
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Old 10-07-2014, 09:44 AM
 
604 posts, read 464,739 times
Reputation: 1231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
^ A culture is hard to change. What kind of government you have is more or less determined by what kind of people you have, especially for a big country where external forces can hardly work.

Maybe China will figure out a unique way.

The reason China does not have democracy currently is not due to Chinese culture (as evidenced by HK and Taiwan) the sole reason is the CCP desire to retain power for its own sake. Because of Chinas size, democracy would actually be more efficient than the extreme centralization and corruption endemic to authoritarian government

No need for China to figure out any "unique way". The long proven way is multi-party democracy, independent judiciary and personal liberties. There will be nuanced differences as there are between every single democracy on the planet but nothing new or truly unique needs to be discovered
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Old 10-07-2014, 09:54 AM
 
2,557 posts, read 2,176,151 times
Reputation: 1810
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
The reason China does not have democracy currently is not due to Chinese culture (as evidenced by HK and Taiwan) the sole reason is the CCP desire to retain power for its own sake. Because of Chinas size, democracy would actually be more efficient than the extreme centralization and corruption endemic to authoritarian government

No need for China to figure out any "unique way". The long proven way is multi-party democracy, independent judiciary and personal liberties. There will be nuanced differences as there are between every single democracy on the planet but nothing new or truly unique needs to be discovered
It's due to the Sith. Power!!!!!! Absolute POWWWWWWEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
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