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Old 10-07-2014, 10:11 AM
 
2,561 posts, read 2,180,112 times
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One of the best online comments I've read so far on the HK protests, from a South China Morning Post reader:

"The panda is a perfect symbol of China (CCP), almost extinct unless fed and artificially inseminated, too stupid to survive on its own. Hong Kong will have its freedom."
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Old 10-07-2014, 10:28 AM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,607,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
The reason China does not have democracy currently is not due to Chinese culture (as evidenced by HK and Taiwan) the sole reason is the CCP desire to retain power for its own sake. Because of Chinas size, democracy would actually be more efficient than the extreme centralization and corruption endemic to authoritarian government

No need for China to figure out any "unique way". The long proven way is multi-party democracy, independent judiciary and personal liberties. There will be nuanced differences as there are between every single democracy on the planet but nothing new or truly unique needs to be discovered
Hong Kong never had democracy before 1997. Taiwan never had democracy before the 1990s.
One was a British colony, and the other is a small island heavily influenced by Japan and the US.

CCP has over 60 million members, and all of them are Chinese people. Most of them are working class or low level white collar workers.


China will NOT be westernized. It is impossible. No political system is perfect. China used to think they had the best system before the 1800s, and they were crushed. Western system is not the ultimate goal of human society either.
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Old 10-07-2014, 10:34 AM
 
569 posts, read 540,947 times
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Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
China government has kept their word so far. The protest is for something new, not indicated in the Basic Law.

Why do you think people have the right to be "independent"? Few countries in the world allow that. Most countries have a constitution to ban that.
Agree or not independence and freedom come not from governments but from our God given rights.
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Old 10-07-2014, 10:37 AM
 
2,561 posts, read 2,180,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Hong Kong never had democracy before 1997. Taiwan never had democracy before the 1990s.
One was a British colony, and the other is a small island heavily influenced by Japan and the US.

CCP has over 60 million members, and all of them are Chinese people. Most of them are working class or low level white collar workers.


China will NOT be westernized. It is impossible. No political system is perfect. China used to think they had the best system before the 1800s, and they were crushed. Western system is not the ultimate goal of human society either.
Before 1991 I remember some people saying the same things about USSR. Before 1989 I remember people saying the same things about DDR. If there is any single consistent truth in this world, it's that change is constant, and especially those tectonic shifts that people describe as "never" but nonetheless occur. So calm down.

Even if China does go with a full-scale American-flavored democracy, so what? Chinese civilization and culture have endured for thousands of years with frequent regime changes and influence from foreign culture, not just western liberal democracy. China will survive and prosper, with or without CCP.
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Old 10-07-2014, 10:42 AM
 
51,946 posts, read 41,806,773 times
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Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
^ A culture is hard to change. What kind of government you have is more or less determined by what kind of people you have, especially for a big country where external forces can hardly work.

Maybe China will figure out a unique way.
Except that in a short period of time China has exploded from Communism to Capitalism and is essentially a political oligarchy.

As for change, it is in the best interests of the oligarchs to keep it a one-party system because it financially benefits those tied into that system.

Unlike the US (with all it's flaws) where you at least had 2 parties to choose from.

I think back to the worker abuses and protests in the US from around 100 years ago as a very very similar parallel. If they had no other party to turn to I think it would have turned out much differently.

There are parts of the US that operate under the same political system. Chicago would be one example. The result is inefficiency and corruption.
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Old 10-07-2014, 10:46 AM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,607,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistoftime View Post
Agree or not independence and freedom come not from governments but from our God given rights.
What if God does not exist?
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Old 10-07-2014, 10:47 AM
 
608 posts, read 465,756 times
Reputation: 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Hong Kong never had democracy before 1997. Taiwan never had democracy before the 1990s.
One was a British colony, and the other is a small island heavily influenced by Japan and the US.

CCP has over 60 million members, and all of them are Chinese people. Most of them are working class or low level white collar workers.


China will NOT be westernized. It is impossible. No political system is perfect. China used to think they had the best system before the 1800s, and they were crushed. Western system is not the ultimate goal of human society either.
I'm perfectly aware of the lack of democracy during specific periods in HK and Taiwan history. It doesn't change the fact that those societies ability to practice and embrace democracy contradict the suggestion that this particular form of governance is contrary to Chinese culture.

Not sure what you mean by "westernized". Is it the multi-party aspect, the independent judiciary, the personal liberties? Just curious as to which trait qualifies a system as "western" of the sort that you believe China must not have.
This seems to always be the rhetoric employed by non-democratic regimes chastising the idea that "western style democracy" should be forced upon them.
And of course by "western" democracy, they really mean democracy, as no two western nations has an identical democratic system.

And the fact that no system is perfect does not mean that all systems are equal or even close.
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Old 10-07-2014, 10:47 AM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,607,688 times
Reputation: 2386
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Before 1991 I remember some people saying the same things about USSR. Before 1989 I remember people saying the same things about DDR. If there is any single consistent truth in this world, it's that change is constant, and especially those tectonic shifts that people describe as "never" but nonetheless occur. So calm down.

Even if China does go with a full-scale American-flavored democracy, so what? Chinese civilization and culture have endured for thousands of years with frequent regime changes and influence from foreign culture, not just western liberal democracy. China will survive and prosper, with or without CCP.
Russia is still not a real democracy according to western standard. It is a European country and more or less has western culture too.

Yes, change is constant. China is always changing, and is the fastest changing country in the world now. But it is not heading to a western system.
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Old 10-07-2014, 10:50 AM
 
2,561 posts, read 2,180,112 times
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Moderator cut: off topic

Going back to the topic, what do you think the next steps will be for the protesters, the HK Government/CY Leung, and Beijing? I know the LegCo will have to vote on Beijing's election amendments, but is unlikely to pass the 2/3 super majority needed.

Last edited by Oldhag1; 10-08-2014 at 05:16 PM.. Reason: Discuss the topic not other posters
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Old 10-07-2014, 10:52 AM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,607,688 times
Reputation: 2386
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
I'm perfectly aware of the lack of democracy during specific periods in HK and Taiwan history. It doesn't change the fact that those societies ability to practice and embrace democracy contradict and suggestion that this particular form of governance is contrary to Chinese culture.

Not sure what you mean by "westernized". Is it the multi-party aspect, the independent judiciary, the personal liberties? Just curious as to which trait qualifies a system as "western" of the sort that you believe China must not have.
This seems to always be the rhetoric employed by non-democratic regimes chastising the idea that "western style democracy" should be forced upon them.
And of course by "western" democracy, they really mean democracy, as no two western nations has an identical democratic system.

And the fact that no system is perfect does not mean that all systems are equal or even close.
Do you know Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore (all dominated by Chinese) had become rich BEFORE they had democracy? South Korea is more or less the same.

What makes you think the current political system used in western countries is the ultimate goal of other countries? Isn't it weird?
Of course China will learn from the west, but it would be stupid just to copy from the west.
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