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Old 10-07-2014, 10:53 AM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,606,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Guys, please just ignore the posts by Bettafish. Typical CCP sympathizer roaming the internet. Nothing new. Moving on.

Going back to the topic, what do you think the next steps will be for the protesters, the HK Government/CY Leung, and Beijing? I know the LegCo will have to vote on Beijing's election amendments, but is unlikely to pass the 2/3 super majority needed.
Yeah name calling is the best way to make an argument, I guess.

I'm not a CCP member and I don't like CCP. However most educated Chinese people think like me.
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Old 10-07-2014, 10:54 AM
 
2,560 posts, read 2,179,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Do you know Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore (all dominated by Chinese) had become rich BEFORE they had democracy? South Korea is more or less the same.

What makes you think the current political system used in western countries is the ultimate goal of other countries? Isn't it weird?
Of course China will learn from the west, but it would be stupid just to copy from the west.
yawn.... putting us to sleep
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Old 10-07-2014, 10:56 AM
 
2,560 posts, read 2,179,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Yeah name calling is the best way to make an argument, I guess.

I'm not a CCP member and I don't like CCP. However most educated Chinese people think like me.
Of course, I mean, you obviously speak for "most" educated Chinese people, like educated people will actually swallow an uncited, unsubstantiated, egocentric statement like that... yawn.....
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Old 10-07-2014, 10:57 AM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,606,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Except that in a short period of time China has exploded from Communism to Capitalism and is essentially a political oligarchy.

As for change, it is in the best interests of the oligarchs to keep it a one-party system because it financially benefits those tied into that system.

Unlike the US (with all it's flaws) where you at least had 2 parties to choose from.

I think back to the worker abuses and protests in the US from around 100 years ago as a very very similar parallel. If they had no other party to turn to I think it would have turned out much differently.

There are parts of the US that operate under the same political system. Chicago would be one example. The result is inefficiency and corruption.
China has no tradition of democracy, so a two-party system would take time to emerge. There used to be KMT and CCP before 1949, and each of them wanted to eliminate the other.
An advantage of having two parties is of course one can criticize the other. I expect CCP to divide into camps.
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Old 10-07-2014, 10:59 AM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,606,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Of course, I mean, you obviously speak for "most" educated Chinese people, like educated people will actually swallow an uncited, unsubstantiated, egocentric statement like that... yawn.....
I lived in China and visit Chinese forums regularly (both in China and overseas). I am much less nationalistic than posters in China even.

You? How many educated Chinese do you know? Do you even speak their language?
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Old 10-07-2014, 11:01 AM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,606,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
yawn.... putting us to sleep
If you have nothing to say, you can keep quiet lol
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Old 10-07-2014, 01:37 PM
 
605 posts, read 465,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Do you know Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore (all dominated by Chinese) had become rich BEFORE they had democracy? South Korea is more or less the same.

What makes you think the current political system used in western countries is the ultimate goal of other countries? Isn't it weird?
Of course China will learn from the west, but it would be stupid just to copy from the west.

Those nations began to emerge before they were true democracies but realized that democratization was necessary on order to take the next step to higher prosperity. China is at the point where if it wants to realized its full potential, it has to evolve beyond its current authoritarian government structure.

And you still haven't specified what exactly you mean by "western" regarding government. No two western democracies are identical in any way except the existence of multiple parties, a judiciary that is independent and respect for human rights.

So your constant reference to "western" can only indicate an aversion to one of these three traits as they are the only shared among all democratic nations and there exists great diversity within these.

If I am wrong about your being against any of the above mentioned common democratic attributes, do correct me and specify what then exactly do you mean by western. And explain why it ought not be something China adopts.
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Old 10-07-2014, 02:00 PM
 
25,059 posts, read 23,172,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
Those nations began to emerge before they were true democracies but realized that democratization was necessary on order to take the next step to higher prosperity. China is at the point where if it wants to realized its full potential, it has to evolve beyond its current authoritarian government structure.

And you still haven't specified what exactly you mean by "western" regarding government. No two western democracies are identical in any way except the existence of multiple parties, a judiciary that is independent and respect for human rights.

So your constant reference to "western" can only indicate an aversion to one of these three traits as they are the only shared among all democratic nations and there exists great diversity within these.

If I am wrong about your being against any of the above mentioned common democratic attributes, do correct me and specify what then exactly do you mean by western. And explain why it ought not be something China adopts.
Keeping in mind, as well, that the CCP itself is founded on Western ideology. So, if Bettafish doesn't want a "Western" style government in China, then maybe he should help China go back to monarchy as its form of government. Let's also keep in mind that a Western style democracy is the reason why Japan is the most prosperous country in Asia, even if they retained their 天王
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Old 10-07-2014, 02:23 PM
 
2,560 posts, read 2,179,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
Keeping in mind, as well, that the CCP itself is founded on Western ideology. So, if Bettafish doesn't want a "Western" style government in China, then maybe he should help China go back to monarchy as its form of government. Let's also keep in mind that a Western style democracy is the reason why Japan is the most prosperous country in Asia, even if they retained their 天王
Exactly. Marxism, Leninism, and the "Communist Party" itself are all imports from the west. There is absolutely nothing Chinese about those foreign ideas things, but somehow they've treated as sacred "Chinese characteristics" by the CCP. At the very least, if the CCP wants to import a western political ideology, import something that is actually practical other than the outdated rants from Marx and Lenin. But of course, we all know that the CCP would never do that itself, because all those other "western" political values would require them to share power with other political entities and be subject to competition and checks and balances.

CCP proclaims that it could perform all those "auxiliary" functions all on its own. Afterall, we have the National People's Congress (the celebrities and billionaires who raise their hands on all CCP laws) and the People's Political Consultative Conference (the Party retirees who clap their hands). And to all those who claim that China is an autocratic dictatorship - what dictatorship?? After all, we still have 8 democratic parties that form a so-called "United Front" clapping and cheering for us at every turn (key words: clapping and cheering)

http://www.china.org.cn/english/Political/29034.htm

Last edited by bostonkid123; 10-07-2014 at 02:37 PM..
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Old 10-07-2014, 02:51 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,806 posts, read 3,041,882 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Exactly. Marxism, Leninism, and the "Communist Party" itself are all imports from the west. There is absolutely nothing Chinese about those foreign ideas things, but somehow they've treated as sacred "Chinese characteristics" by the CCP. At the very least, if the CCP wants to import a western political ideology, import something that is actually practical other than the outdated rants from Marx and Lenin. But of course, we all know that the CCP would never do that itself, because all those other "western" political values would require them to share power with other political entities and be subject to competition and checks and balances.

CCP proclaims that it could perform all those "auxiliary" functions all on its own. Afterall, we have the National People's Congress (the celebrities and billionaires who raise their hands on all CCP laws) and the People's Political Consultative Conference (the Party retirees who clap their hands). And to all those who claim that China is an autocratic dictatorship - what dictatorship?? After all, we still have 8 democratic parties that form a so-called "United Front" clapping and cheering for us at every turn (key words: clapping and cheering)

IV. The System of Multi-Party Cooperation and Political Consultation
Thank you for saying this. I was really confused at one point when Bettafish kept saying China will never import any ideas from the West when they took Communism from Karl Marx.
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