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Old 10-09-2014, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,126,284 times
Reputation: 4566

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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
There is no need to. Once the momentum is gone, it will only go downhill.

I do respect their protest effort, however it was doomed to fail from the beginning.

1) these people have no real agenda and no leader. They set an ultimate goal without any measures to achieve that. For a demonstration to work, you will need efficient leaders, and you will need well designed plans, including where to compromise.

2) US, UK etc. don't really care about HK any more. They support them on paper of course because they know it is not worth fighting Beijing right now.

3) they don't even have majority support of HK citizens. Too much disruption to business during the best shopping season. You think those business owners will be glad about all the lost revenue?
Yeah yeah yeah this have been discussed for 40 pages, I'm getting really tired.

My question is why haven't they evacuated the students? It has already gone downhill, there are not that many people currently, and since HK CY Leung is so desperate for "orders" of the city, why hasn't he exercised his power and get rid of the protesters?

Last edited by Greysholic; 10-09-2014 at 10:27 PM..
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Old 10-10-2014, 08:18 AM
 
2,562 posts, read 2,180,745 times
Reputation: 1815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Yeah yeah yeah this have been discussed for 40 pages, I'm getting really tired.

My question is why haven't they evacuated the students? It has already gone downhill, there are not that many people currently, and since HK CY Leung is so desperate for "orders" of the city, why hasn't he exercised his power and get rid of the protesters?
I suspect that CY Leung is just biding his time and trying to see who can hold out longer. The HK Government is going to be there no matter how long the protesters stay. If I were Leung, I also would do nothing at this point. Any action taken would only invoke more hostility and media attention. There is a saying in Chinese - "Minimize major problems into minor problems. Then turn the minor problems into nothing" Works every time.
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Old 10-10-2014, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,126,284 times
Reputation: 4566
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
I suspect that CY Leung is just biding his time and trying to see who can hold out longer. The HK Government is going to be there no matter how long the protesters stay. If I were Leung, I also would do nothing at this point. Any action taken would only invoke more hostility and media attention. There is a saying in Chinese - "Minimize major problems into minor problems. Then turn the minor problems into nothing" Works every time.
Yeah, probably.
But judging from Taiwan's experience, it'd take quite a long time to turn the minor problems into nothing. The students movement of Taiwan in 1980s stayed for like three months or something.
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Old 10-10-2014, 04:22 PM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,704,092 times
Reputation: 1713
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
There is no need to. Once the momentum is gone, it will only go downhill.

I do respect their protest effort, however it was doomed to fail from the beginning.

1) these people have no real agenda and no leader. They set an ultimate goal without any measures to achieve that. For a demonstration to work, you will need efficient leaders, and you will need well designed plans, including where to compromise.

2) US, UK etc. don't really care about HK any more. They support them on paper of course because they know it is not worth fighting Beijing right now.

3) they don't even have majority support of HK citizens. Too much disruption to business during the best shopping season. You think those business owners will be glad about all the lost revenue?
Of course it not going to change anything now, Chinese leaders do not want to lose face. Larger organized protest with the backing of the US would not help anything, it would just make China scared. The current size is just fine.

But what it can do is to give a warning sign to the leaders of China. If they mess more with Hong Kong they are going to get real unrest. For instance if the election in 2017 is a total sham, then expect to see much larger protest. Not everything about the 2017 election is decided yet.

I am sure they are not so stupid, that they will make Hong Kong people dislike China even more.
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Old 10-11-2014, 04:55 AM
 
4,689 posts, read 3,616,660 times
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I am a bit confused. In what way have the Chinese "messed" with HK's "democracy"? Go read the Basic Law and please highlight the section for which the Chinese authorities in Beijing have violated.

I am very curious of the answer to this question.

These students want "democracy", and all you arm-chair whatever proclaim China's "evil curtailing" of HK "democracy as if it's a fact. Yet all I see is that for roughly 150 years under British rule, there was not one ounce of democracy in HK ever. Then, through the Basic Law which the Chinese created for HK and which all relevant authorities have signed onto, the stipulation is for universal voting rights in direct elections of candidates that are vetted and acceptable to the Central authorities. This is very clearly stated in the Basic Law, and all fair mined people would agree that, at least on paper, it's definitely steps toward democracy. One can worry about the yes-men candidates, so negotiate with Beijing in good faith for true autonomy is definitely reasonable. But why all this protest and chest-thumping about "evil" China gobbling up "HK democracy" when none of it has actually happened yet? Such ignorant and mob rule idiocy all around.

If these students and whoever want to keep going with their disruptive protests, then go right ahead. China isn't going to be so stupid as to interfere and bring any blame onto itself. The Basic Law is there for everyone to see, and China has not done anything to violate anyone's "rights". The HK authorities have the responsibility to maintain law and order, and if they cannot, then only the regular people of HK, like all the shop-owners, the business people etc will suffer. If HK wants to dig its own grave and slash its own wrist, then that's its choice. But if it wants any sort of "independence", then it's just dreaming.

I just came back last year from a two week trip to Shanghai and Guangzhou....believe me when I tell you that HK is rapidly being sidelined by those megacities in every way possible. HK is no longer all that important to China economically, and so it needs to know its place and stop acting with such hubris. It will only hurt itself.

Last edited by pennyone; 10-11-2014 at 05:13 AM..
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Old 10-11-2014, 05:15 PM
 
2,562 posts, read 2,180,745 times
Reputation: 1815
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
I am a bit confused. In what way have the Chinese "messed" with HK's "democracy"? Go read the Basic Law and please highlight the section for which the Chinese authorities in Beijing have violated.

I am very curious of the answer to this question.

These students want "democracy", and all you arm-chair whatever proclaim China's "evil curtailing" of HK "democracy as if it's a fact. Yet all I see is that for roughly 150 years under British rule, there was not one ounce of democracy in HK ever. Then, through the Basic Law which the Chinese created for HK and which all relevant authorities have signed onto, the stipulation is for universal voting rights in direct elections of candidates that are vetted and acceptable to the Central authorities. This is very clearly stated in the Basic Law, and all fair mined people would agree that, at least on paper, it's definitely steps toward democracy. One can worry about the yes-men candidates, so negotiate with Beijing in good faith for true autonomy is definitely reasonable. But why all this protest and chest-thumping about "evil" China gobbling up "HK democracy" when none of it has actually happened yet? Such ignorant and mob rule idiocy all around.

If these students and whoever want to keep going with their disruptive protests, then go right ahead. China isn't going to be so stupid as to interfere and bring any blame onto itself. The Basic Law is there for everyone to see, and China has not done anything to violate anyone's "rights". The HK authorities have the responsibility to maintain law and order, and if they cannot, then only the regular people of HK, like all the shop-owners, the business people etc will suffer. If HK wants to dig its own grave and slash its own wrist, then that's its choice. But if it wants any sort of "independence", then it's just dreaming.

I just came back last year from a two week trip to Shanghai and Guangzhou....believe me when I tell you that HK is rapidly being sidelined by those megacities in every way possible. HK is no longer all that important to China economically, and so it needs to know its place and stop acting with such hubris. It will only hurt itself.
3 points:

1. Limiting, vetting, appointing candidates can only result in a sham democracy and sham vote. If it comes down to that, why bother? Why don't you just appoint your own Chief Executive instead of setting this illusion for the people of HK? How tiresome.

2. Just because a people did not have democracy in the past doesn't mean they should be subject to the same historic limitations now or in the future. So China's only reason for not giving HK full suffrage is because the UK didn't do it? Just in case you haven't realized, the UK relinquished control of HK almost 20 years ago. Whatever the UK did with HK, it's history now. Get over it.

3. So the Basic Law didn't explicitly outline universal suffrage. Big deal. People should follow the law. True, but that doesn't mean all laws are right. Hitler's government instituted the Nuremburg Laws in 1935 that stripped all Jews of citizenship and voting rights - that's a law, but it doesn't mean that law is right. That's why we have legislatures and lawmakers that vigorously examine present and past legislation and make adjustments.
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Old 10-11-2014, 06:38 PM
 
4,689 posts, read 3,616,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
3 points:

1. Limiting, vetting, appointing candidates can only result in a sham democracy and sham vote. If it comes down to that, why bother? Why don't you just appoint your own Chief Executive instead of setting this illusion for the people of HK? How tiresome.

2. Just because a people did not have democracy in the past doesn't mean they should be subject to the same historic limitations now or in the future. So China's only reason for not giving HK full suffrage is because the UK didn't do it? Just in case you haven't realized, the UK relinquished control of HK almost 20 years ago. Whatever the UK did with HK, it's history now. Get over it.

3. So the Basic Law didn't explicitly outline universal suffrage. Big deal. People should follow the law. True, but that doesn't mean all laws are right. Hitler's government instituted the Nuremburg Laws in 1935 that stripped all Jews of citizenship and voting rights - that's a law, but it doesn't mean that law is right. That's why we have legislatures and lawmakers that vigorously examine present and past legislation and make adjustments.
Actually, the Basic Law does allow for universal suffrage. But it also stipulate the vetting process in the hands of China's central government. It has some to do with China's ongoing fear of a crazy nut getting elected through some sort of demagogue freakshow who then wreck havoc by trying his hand at HK independence (never ever going to happen, even if China has to draw blood), and some to do with Beijing demonstrating its authority relative to a regional government (just the way Beijing is). My point is....the Basic Law is a step in the right direction. If you dont like it, or think it should be improved, then negotiate in good faith with Beijing and come up with way to reassure that no crazy nut gets through the system. But why all this messy protests disrupting other people's livelihood? Why damage HK's own economy when you are trying to, supposedly, improve/"protect" HK?

And, why do you people constantly harp on China somehow trying to "reduce" HK's "democracy" when it has never had any in its history? How is China trying to "steal" something that does not exist ?

Your rant about Hitler notwithstanding, please explain how China is "stealing" HK's "democracy"?

By the way, I am way over Britain...long ago. Britain has no say whatsoever in China or HK;s affairs. Absolutely nothing, and the dead silence from London these days demonstrates the relative maturity of the present British government. They know better than to open their big trap. They have no moral authority, no hard power, and they need Chinese money.
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Old 10-11-2014, 06:44 PM
 
2,562 posts, read 2,180,745 times
Reputation: 1815
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Actually, the Basic Law does allow for universal suffrage. But it also stipulate the vetting process in the hands of China's central government. It has some to do with China's ongoing fear of a crazy nut getting elected through some sort of demagogue freakshow who then wreck havoc by trying his hand at HK independence (never ever going to happen, even if China has to draw blood), and some to do with Beijing demonstrating its authority relative to a regional government (just the way Beijing is). My point is....the Basic Law is a step in the right direction. If you dont like it, or think it should be improved, then negotiate in good faith with Beijing and come up with way to reassure that no crazy nut gets through the system. But why all this messy protests disrupting other people's livelihood? Why damage HK's own economy when you are trying to, supposedly, improve/"protect" HK?

And, why do you people constantly harp on China somehow trying to "reduce" HK's "democracy" when it has never had any in its history? How is China trying to "steal" something that does not exist ?

Your rant about Hitler notwithstanding, please explain how China is "stealing" HK's "democracy"?
Change the bolded word from "China" to "CCP", then everything will make more sense.

Just to be clear, China =/= Communist Party of China. China's had over 20 different major dynastic and regime changes over the past 2000 years. The Communist Party has been in power for merely 65 years and somehow can proclaim that it represents the entire Chinese people and civilization? Hilarious.

The thing is, I totally understand the Communist Party's perspective. The Party wants to maintain its power base and monopoly on domestic politics. Fair enough. Who doesn't? Just stop pretending that it's trying somehow implement democratic reform. There will never be democracy or true universal suffrage as long as the CCP has a monopoly on power. It's that simple.
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Old 10-12-2014, 03:35 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,704,092 times
Reputation: 1713
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Actually, the Basic Law does allow for universal suffrage. But it also stipulate the vetting process in the hands of China's central government. It has some to do with China's ongoing fear of a crazy nut getting elected through some sort of demagogue freakshow who then wreck havoc by trying his hand at HK independence (never ever going to happen, even if China has to draw blood), and some to do with Beijing demonstrating its authority relative to a regional government (just the way Beijing is). My point is....the Basic Law is a step in the right direction. If you dont like it, or think it should be improved, then negotiate in good faith with Beijing and come up with way to reassure that no crazy nut gets through the system. But why all this messy protests disrupting other people's livelihood? Why damage HK's own economy when you are trying to, supposedly, improve/"protect" HK?

And, why do you people constantly harp on China somehow trying to "reduce" HK's "democracy" when it has never had any in its history? How is China trying to "steal" something that does not exist ?

Your rant about Hitler notwithstanding, please explain how China is "stealing" HK's "democracy"?

By the way, I am way over Britain...long ago. Britain has no say whatsoever in China or HK;s affairs. Absolutely nothing, and the dead silence from London these days demonstrates the relative maturity of the present British government. They know better than to open their big trap. They have no moral authority, no hard power, and they need Chinese money.
You did not answer his first question. What Hong Kong people are worried about is that the election will be a sham, meaning you can only vote for a few almost identical candidates.

The only thing China has to do is to assure Hong Kong that it is possible to vote for a pro-democracy candidate as long as they love China. Even when asked directly, they made no such assurances. So people realized the requirement was put in place to limit pro-democracy candidates, not to get a candidate who love China and Hong Kong.

So, Why don't CCP just appoint their own Chief Executive instead of setting this illusion for the people of HK?
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Old 10-12-2014, 04:14 AM
 
4,689 posts, read 3,616,660 times
Reputation: 7385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
You did not answer his first question. What Hong Kong people are worried about is that the election will be a sham, meaning you can only vote for a few almost identical candidates.

The only thing China has to do is to assure Hong Kong that it is possible to vote for a pro-democracy candidate as long as they love China. Even when asked directly, they made no such assurances. So people realized the requirement was put in place to limit pro-democracy candidates, not to get a candidate who love China and Hong Kong.

So, Why don't CCP just appoint their own Chief Executive instead of setting this illusion for the people of HK?
Fair enough, then focus on that, and discuss ways to ensure that, in the context of Chinese sovereignty, the candidates can really speak for HK's interest. Maybe a clear statement that, if need by, and when threat to sovereignty is challenged, the central authorities can activate the PLA and restore order. Maybe the Anti-Secession law can be rehashed for HK and written into the HK Basic Law. How would you like that?

As far as you armchair whatevers thumping your chest screaming about "evil" China, or "evil CCP" stealing HK's democracy, get a clue or be quiet. China has not stolen anything from HK.
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