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Old 10-12-2014, 04:35 AM
 
2,562 posts, read 2,180,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Fair enough, then focus on that, and discuss ways to ensure that, in the context of Chinese sovereignty, the candidates can really speak for HK's interest. Maybe a clear statement that, if need by, and when threat to sovereignty is challenged, the central authorities can activate the PLA and restore order. Maybe the Anti-Secession law can be rehashed for HK and written into the HK Basic Law. How would you like that?

As far as you armchair whatevers thumping your chest screaming about "evil" China, or "evil CCP" stealing HK's democracy, get a clue or be quiet. China has not stolen anything from HK.
1. Stop equating China with CCP. The CCP is the ruling political party of China, but it does not speak for all Chinese people or the Chinese civilization. The Chinese people are a great people, and they will persevere and prosper, through good and bad times, whether or not there is a CCP.

2. Just because somebody opposes the CCP or some of its policies, doesn't mean they are out to separate HK from China or to betray the Chinese nation. A lot of Chinese people studying and living abroad fiercely love the nation and sometimes display even more patriotic fervor than their domestic counterparts, even though many openly despise and criticize the CCP's corrupt rule. For full disclosure, every single person from my dad's family was/is a CCP member - my grandfather fought with the Red Army since the 1930s and later PLA that ousted Chiang Kai-Shek and built the PRC from ground up - to say that they are unpatriotic just because they don't like current CCP rule is ludicrous.
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Old 10-12-2014, 05:06 AM
 
4,689 posts, read 3,616,660 times
Reputation: 7386
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
1. Stop equating China with CCP. The CCP is the ruling political party of China, but it does not speak for all Chinese people or the Chinese civilization. The Chinese people are a great people, and they will persevere and prosper, through good and bad times, whether or not there is a CCP.

2. Just because somebody opposes the CCP or some of its policies, doesn't mean they are out to separate HK from China or to betray the Chinese nation. A lot of Chinese people studying and living abroad fiercely love the nation and sometimes display even more patriotic fervor than their domestic counterparts, even though many openly despise and criticize the CCP's corrupt rule. For full disclosure, every single person from my dad's family was/is a CCP member - my grandfather fought with the Red Army since the 1930s and later PLA that ousted Chiang Kai-Shek and built the PRC from ground up - to say that they are unpatriotic just because they don't like current CCP rule is ludicrous.
First, you still have not answered my original question about how China, or the CCP (whatever you want) "stole" HK's democracy?

"Just because somebody opposes the CCP or some of its policies, doesn't mean they are out to separate HK from China or to betray the Chinese nation."

Sure, I dont have a problem with that. But regardless of what you want to refer to, China as a nation or the CCP as a ruing party, the fact is, Chinese "sovereignty" is about being a part of China, and that is exactly what the Anti-Secession Law is meant to ensure. I dont care how you feel about the CCP, that is not the point. You can separate the CCP from China all you want. I am talking about declaring secession from China.

"The Chinese people are a great people, and they will persevere and prosper, through good and bad times, whether or not there is a CCP."...

Well, the great Chinese nation certainly did not prosper since the early 1800's (unless you are an opium dealer merchant, or corrupt official)...all the way through the early Republic (unless you are a warlord, or any of their corrupt merchant friends), the GMD (unless you are a corrupt official, or a member of the Soong family and their thousands of friends and pals), and under Japanese occupation ('nough said). The CCP also caused huge catastrophes too (communist zealotry, ultra leftist lunacy, GLF and starvation, massive stupid political campaigns etc), but it was under their rule for the past thirty years that China is now the #2 economy. You win some, you lose some. No point in arguing about history. The point is, the great Chinese nation did decline and outright collapsed under non-CCP rule. It also rose under CCP rule.

As a person whose family seems so closely tied to China's turbulent history, I am surprised that you would use a one size fit all measuring stick to judge the CCP. It certainly has its flaws, but it also has its merits. The point about the Basic Law for HK is not about the CCP, but about HK's place in China as a nation, its special status, and its ability to maintain its own interest while still staying loyal to China. Are you implying that HK should have the right to declare independence from the CCP but still be a part of China? Doesn't the fact that it can elect its own city leader (CE) guarantee this already? The only real issue is in the fine print, and HK's interests are not going to be served with a bunch of young people not going to classes but instead occupying major streets paying mah jong out in the open.

Last edited by pennyone; 10-12-2014 at 06:25 AM..
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Old 10-13-2014, 08:47 AM
 
1,013 posts, read 770,548 times
Reputation: 484
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
First, you still have not answered my original question about how China, or the CCP (whatever you want) "stole" HK's democracy?

"Just because somebody opposes the CCP or some of its policies, doesn't mean they are out to separate HK from China or to betray the Chinese nation."

Sure, I dont have a problem with that. But regardless of what you want to refer to, China as a nation or the CCP as a ruing party, the fact is, Chinese "sovereignty" is about being a part of China, and that is exactly what the Anti-Secession Law is meant to ensure. I dont care how you feel about the CCP, that is not the point. You can separate the CCP from China all you want. I am talking about declaring secession from China.

"The Chinese people are a great people, and they will persevere and prosper, through good and bad times, whether or not there is a CCP."...

Well, the great Chinese nation certainly did not prosper since the early 1800's (unless you are an opium dealer merchant, or corrupt official)...all the way through the early Republic (unless you are a warlord, or any of their corrupt merchant friends), the GMD (unless you are a corrupt official, or a member of the Soong family and their thousands of friends and pals), and under Japanese occupation ('nough said). The CCP also caused huge catastrophes too (communist zealotry, ultra leftist lunacy, GLF and starvation, massive stupid political campaigns etc), but it was under their rule for the past thirty years that China is now the #2 economy. You win some, you lose some. No point in arguing about history. The point is, the great Chinese nation did decline and outright collapsed under non-CCP rule. It also rose under CCP rule.

As a person whose family seems so closely tied to China's turbulent history, I am surprised that you would use a one size fit all measuring stick to judge the CCP. It certainly has its flaws, but it also has its merits. The point about the Basic Law for HK is not about the CCP, but about HK's place in China as a nation, its special status, and its ability to maintain its own interest while still staying loyal to China. Are you implying that HK should have the right to declare independence from the CCP but still be a part of China? Doesn't the fact that it can elect its own city leader (CE) guarantee this already? The only real issue is in the fine print, and HK's interests are not going to be served with a bunch of young people not going to classes but instead occupying major streets paying mah jong out in the open.
except they are not playing Mah Jong

if you watched the youtube clips many were studying
unlike your mah jong

they have teachers and professors there
teaching the students instead and they are actually doing their homework and studying for their exams.

some are also playing cards and talking as such of course after they were done doing their work.

there are large mixtures of laborers that do not depend on china tourism for their livelihood hence
they dont care too much about mainland tourism or the barricading affecting the area.
but instead welcome it.

the other 50% are opposed mainly because their livelihood depends on china tourism.
so they produce everything with mainland china in mind instead of the citizens of hong kong first and then the tourists.

thus diverting resources, rather than to locals first.

exports are meant to be exported when you have SURPLUSES NOT when you need them yourself.
it would be STUPID TO wouldn't it? unless of course you could use the arbitrage to make a profit for yourself which many have but it essentially makes others suffer so you win more.

not that I am opposed to that but thats one of the things HK dislikes about mainland China.
as mainlanders get pregnant then go to HK and birth there so they can go on welfare.

hence not very good.

its like the Mexican border dispute in USA.
the illegals come here birth then claim citizenship.
causing problems as the parents cannot stay but then are granted citizenship afterwards.

then they go on welfare.
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Old 10-13-2014, 09:56 AM
 
4,689 posts, read 3,616,660 times
Reputation: 7386
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen811 View Post
except they are not playing Mah Jong

if you watched the youtube clips many were studying
unlike your mah jong

they have teachers and professors there
teaching the students instead and they are actually doing their homework and studying for their exams.

some are also playing cards and talking as such of course after they were done doing their work.

there are large mixtures of laborers that do not depend on china tourism for their livelihood hence
they dont care too much about mainland tourism or the barricading affecting the area.
but instead welcome it.

the other 50% are opposed mainly because their livelihood depends on china tourism.
so they produce everything with mainland china in mind instead of the citizens of hong kong first and then the tourists.

thus diverting resources, rather than to locals first.

exports are meant to be exported when you have SURPLUSES NOT when you need them yourself.
it would be STUPID TO wouldn't it? unless of course you could use the arbitrage to make a profit for yourself which many have but it essentially makes others suffer so you win more.

not that I am opposed to that but thats one of the things HK dislikes about mainland China.
as mainlanders get pregnant then go to HK and birth there so they can go on welfare.

hence not very good.

its like the Mexican border dispute in USA.
the illegals come here birth then claim citizenship.
causing problems as the parents cannot stay but then are granted citizenship afterwards.

then they go on welfare.
Except that China owns HK and Mexico does not own California or the American Southwest....but who's cares about the details anyway?

At this point, I am hoping this protest ruin HK just so that these people will learn some humility. Like I said previously, I was in Shanghai and Guanzhou recently, and believe me, HK is losing its edge relative to many places in China. And no, HK cannot gain any sort of "independence".
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Old 10-13-2014, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,126,284 times
Reputation: 4566
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
At this point, I am hoping this protest ruin HK just so that these people will learn some humility. Like I said previously, I was in Shanghai and Guanzhou recently, and believe me, HK is losing its edge relative to many places in China. And no, HK cannot gain any sort of "independence".
You'd need a lot more than simply sitting on the streets and setting up some tents to ruin a city, lol.

And really, the people who desperately need to learn "humility" are you deluded and petty overseas Chinese third graders.

Last edited by Oldhag1; 10-14-2014 at 06:45 AM.. Reason: Language
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Old 10-13-2014, 11:10 AM
 
1,013 posts, read 770,548 times
Reputation: 484
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Except that China owns HK and Mexico does not own California or the American Southwest....but who's cares about the details anyway?

At this point, I am hoping this protest ruin HK just so that these people will learn some humility. Like I said previously, I was in Shanghai and Guanzhou recently, and believe me, HK is losing its edge relative to many places in China. And no, HK cannot gain any sort of "independence".
I don't think they expect independence.
but just a right to elect their own governor.

such as federal mandates do not come down to the city level and dictate the governors and mayors what to do.

CEO of HK is technically the Mayor of HK
HK is a city after all.

you are just afraid of succession when that wasn't even asked for.

HK knows they themselves are Chinese too

but they also know mainland China and their culture
is very different as well as similar.

And Yes I guess you should ask the teachers and professors to show humility then.
yes they are all ignorant

they should be shot like those in tainemen square
Sun yat sen would be sad.

perhaps read your own history:
Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hu Yaobang: which was cracking down on corruption

forced to resign and died 2 years shortly after the corrupted party of China forced him out because he was too honorable for them and the political leaders wanted to keep their corruption game going while he was in the way.

HOW honorable of the CCP.


SO the CCP fired on students whom were PROTESTING NOT really for DEMOCRACY BUT
AGAINST Corruption of the CCP at the time.
and they were fired upon

as a result one can assess that the corrupted people that made that order are corrupt and all their assets are illegitimate where they should be killed and have their assets seized.


anyone that voted for the massacre of the students during that time should have been tried for war crimes and have their family wealth seized and themselves killed.

now They hide the history of it in the history books in China.
fact is it happened and cannot be changed.

please note:
Sun Yat Sen was a medical practitioner
and
Hu Yaobang was a revolutionary since ages past but was treated this way for cleaning up corruption of CCP.

How sad is it. eh?
Hu Jintao was the previous CCP president or figure head btw.
Hu Jintao admired Hu Yaobang btw if you read the wiki.

so he was a bit more more capitalist than previous generations

you should read about what deng and mao promoted as well.
compare it to Hu.

and you would see Hu is actually less in favor of Marxism in general.
all he is promoting is to be honest because of corruption while the others were more promoting
following government no matter what

Xi Jinping? we dont know much what he wants to do yet.
lets see what he wants to promote.

but maybe Chinese from mainland should research their own history first before commenting on HK thanks.
we know Taiwan and Hong Kong will never become truly independent.


But they can negotiate such that they can have some autonomy to govern themselves.
Instead of just being meat to be hunted by the elites in China and thus just using HK to extract wealth.

the Mainland could at least let them represent themselves.
same to Taiwan.

let their governors at least be elected by their own people.
while succession is forbidden.

USA did the same thing during the Civil war after all.
succession forbidden but there are at least true elections
even if the corporations co opt them and

make stupid people vote for idiotic candidates.
Yes I am looking at all of our States I mind you.
but at least we still have a chance to change things.

while HK doesn't

Last edited by gen811; 10-13-2014 at 11:27 AM..
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Old 10-13-2014, 01:56 PM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,704,092 times
Reputation: 1713
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Fair enough, then focus on that, and discuss ways to ensure that, in the context of Chinese sovereignty, the candidates can really speak for HK's interest. Maybe a clear statement that, if need by, and when threat to sovereignty is challenged, the central authorities can activate the PLA and restore order. Maybe the Anti-Secession law can be rehashed for HK and written into the HK Basic Law. How would you like that?

As far as you armchair whatevers thumping your chest screaming about "evil" China, or "evil CCP" stealing HK's democracy, get a clue or be quiet. China has not stolen anything from HK.
That's exactly what they did. They had a lot of negotiating going on, but China was not willing to compromise. All those compromise you talked about, would be rejected by China. Why? Because China didn't want democracy in Hong Kong, at all. They would prefer to elect their own chief executive, but a pretend democracy look better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
At this point, I am hoping this protest ruin HK just so that these people will learn some humility. Like I said previously, I was in Shanghai and Guanzhou recently, and believe me, HK is losing its edge relative to many places in China. And no, HK cannot gain any sort of "independence".
You are just confirming your bias to everyone. You want Hong Kong to fail. You want to see cities in mainland china replace Hong Kong. So why should anyone concerned about Hong Kong future, listen to you.
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Old 10-13-2014, 02:29 PM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,878,707 times
Reputation: 11419
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
The reason China does not have democracy currently is not due to Chinese culture (as evidenced by HK and Taiwan) the sole reason is the CCP desire to retain power for its own sake. Because of Chinas size, democracy would actually be more efficient than the extreme centralization and corruption endemic to authoritarian government

No need for China to figure out any "unique way". The long proven way is multi-party democracy, independent judiciary and personal liberties. There will be nuanced differences as there are between every single democracy on the planet but nothing new or truly unique needs to be discovered
If China had a democracy it would implode. The reason China doesn't have a democracy is because it can't at this stage in it's societal evolution.

Using HK and Taiwan as examples makes absolutely no sense at all.

China's economy can't support a democracy not can it's services such as Health Care, public assistance and so on.
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Old 10-14-2014, 05:49 PM
 
4,689 posts, read 3,616,660 times
Reputation: 7386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
That's exactly what they did. They had a lot of negotiating going on, but China was not willing to compromise. All those compromise you talked about, would be rejected by China. Why? Because China didn't want democracy in Hong Kong, at all. They would prefer to elect their own chief executive, but a pretend democracy look better.



You are just confirming your bias to everyone. You want Hong Kong to fail. You want to see cities in mainland china replace Hong Kong. So why should anyone concerned about Hong Kong future, listen to you.
Don't be silly. I dont care about HK one way or the other. But that does not mean I wish it to fail. I do think many in HK have an arrogant attitude toward China. I am far more interested in China than HK. My point has already been made, and if you are interested, go back a few pages.
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Old 10-14-2014, 11:40 PM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,704,092 times
Reputation: 1713
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Don't be silly. I dont care about HK one way or the other. But that does not mean I wish it to fail. I do think many in HK have an arrogant attitude toward China. I am far more interested in China than HK. My point has already been made, and if you are interested, go back a few pages.
Yeah, right. If you don't want Hong Kong to fail, then why do you write
At this point, I am hoping this protest ruin HK just so that these people will learn some humility.
You don't like Hong Kong. You don't like Hong Kong people. You are not interested in Hong Kong. Why should we listen to someone who don't have Hong Kong interest in mind?
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