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Old 09-28-2014, 09:54 PM
 
501 posts, read 462,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Hong Kong had never had democracy before being handed over to China.
Hong Kong had never had any general election before 1997.
The problem is that both the Chinese and British governments have continually promised Hong Kong the ability to freely elect its leaders, and continually reneged on those promises.

Combine that with the current erosions of freedom of the press, all the social problems HK is facing now and the government's inability or unwillingness to address them, the general economic hardship the whole world is dealing with, etc--the people want a government that seems responsive to the people's needs and their hope was that free elections would provide that. Beijing's recent attitude and statements are devastating to people who have put their hopes on that.
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Old 09-28-2014, 10:39 PM
 
Location: Macao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Why do you think people have the right to be "independent"? Few countries in the world allow that. Most countries have a constitution to ban that.
One country, two systems.

Maybe I don't understand the movement. But isn't it about FREE ELECTIONS? Beijing is trying to dictate who will govern Hong Kong in Hong Kong.

Hong Kong people want to choose who and how it will be governed. If they are 'two systems', than they should be able to choose how to run their system.
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Old 09-28-2014, 10:42 PM
 
Location: Macao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerous-Boy View Post
Unfortunately, by killing democracy in Hong Kong, you kill what's unique about it. It becomes just another soulness PRC city. Hong Kong cinema is already dead. the free exchange of ideas in Hong Kong will no longer be acceptable under PRC rule.

you know...since they're going to kill democracy in Hong Kong, they should at least make them drive on the right side of the road. That left side driving is annoying. Red dragon could at least ram that down their throats.
Agreed.

Actually, that is what is SO ATTRACTIVE to most mainlanders that they want to study and live in Hong Kong. They can get a UNBIASED view of the world. They want the freedoms to look at FACEBOOK or use SKYPE. Most of these things are closed in China.

THe education system in HONG KONG is significantly better, because students can access international sources, and examine things from an international perspective.

If Beijing takes that away from Hong Kong. Than, it's a major game changer. But based on China's involvement with Tibet, I don't think China really cares so much. What's interesting is how this will make people in Taiwan way more nervous when they see the 'one country, two systems' isn't going through as promised.
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Old 09-28-2014, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Derby, Western Australia
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Unfortunately it doesn't appear that granting Hong Kong a truly democratic legislature was part of the Joint Sino British declaration signed in 1984 and in fact even the British themselves didn't introduce democratic reforms to the legislature until 3 years before the handover.

Whilst I'm sympathetic to the protestors, Hong Kong has never really had a democracy (though it has had freedom of speech/information) and just can't see Beijing backing down on this, lest they set a precedent for the mainland Chinese to follow.
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Old 09-28-2014, 11:45 PM
 
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Actually this is not really about democracy, this is about China controlling Hong Kong while they couldn't care less about the local population. Hong Kong property market has become a gambling place for the rich of China. This could easily be stopped even just with local dictators, but because they are controlled by another region who don't really care about the locals in Hong Kong then nothing has been done. At the same time land has been restricted to ensure skyrocketing prices and social freedoms have eroded.

Hong Kong call for democracy is not really because democracy is such a huge issue, but that they feel democracy is the only way to get the problems addressed in Hong Kong. And the problem is not the requirement that a future leader need to love Hong Kong and China. The problem is that it will abused by China to give them no choice at all. You want a leader who wants to free more land and restrict Chinese property investment, sorry a leader like that does not exist. You can choose between these 3 identical leaders. In fact I believe this reform is worse than no reform at all, because at least now they are not pretending to be free elections.

My guess is that these protests will eventually die down, hopefully this reform is rejected by pro-democrats and a new Chinese government will implement more reasonable reforms for the 2022 election.
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Old 09-29-2014, 01:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Actually this is not really about democracy, this is about China controlling Hong Kong while they couldn't care less about the local population. Hong Kong property market has become a gambling place for the rich of China. This could easily be stopped even just with local dictators, but because they are controlled by another region who don't really care about the locals in Hong Kong then nothing has been done. At the same time land has been restricted to ensure skyrocketing prices and social freedoms have eroded.

Hong Kong call for democracy is not really because democracy is such a huge issue, but that they feel democracy is the only way to get the problems addressed in Hong Kong. And the problem is not the requirement that a future leader need to love Hong Kong and China. The problem is that it will abused by China to give them no choice at all. You want a leader who wants to free more land and restrict Chinese property investment, sorry a leader like that does not exist. You can choose between these 3 identical leaders. In fact I believe this reform is worse than no reform at all, because at least now they are not pretending to be free elections.

My guess is that these protests will eventually die down, hopefully this reform is rejected by pro-democrats and a new Chinese government will implement more reasonable reforms for the 2022 election.
Basically I agree it is more about (young) people's distrust and dislike against China/HK government, rather than democracy per se.

China government never compromises for protests. It is their nature. They may consider soft suggestions but will never bend over violent strikes. It has been tested in China again and again. I don't think this thing will end well.
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Old 09-29-2014, 04:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Basically I agree it is more about (young) people's distrust and dislike against China/HK government, rather than democracy per se.

China government never compromises for protests. It is their nature. They may consider soft suggestions but will never bend over violent strikes. It has been tested in China again and again. I don't think this thing will end well.
Actually sometimes they do. Hong Kong has won several battles by protesting, for instance China patriotic education reform never got implemented, because of protest. You may claim that the Chinese government does not easily listen to protests, but that is because they are not good at listening at all. Hence, protesting is still the solution, because China has no interest in destroying Hong Kong. Destroying Hong Kong will sour the relationship to Taiwan and damage its international reputation.

But I think protesting has another purpose. It will scare the Chinese government a little bit. They are not going to back down now, but it is perfectly fine to change your mind in the future. If the election reform of 2017 get rejected, then they are likely to think about a new reform for 2022. Then they know they have to compromise a little bit to make Hong Kong people happy.
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Old 09-29-2014, 04:55 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,777 posts, read 5,136,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Actually sometimes they do. Hong Kong has won several battles by protesting, for instance China patriotic education reform never got implemented, because of protest. You may claim that the Chinese government does not easily listen to protests, but that is because they are not good at listening at all. Hence, protesting is still the solution, because China has no interest in destroying Hong Kong. Destroying Hong Kong will sour the relationship to Taiwan and damage its international reputation.
I don't think China concerns its relationship with Taiwan or its international reputation at all. Taiwanese people has never liked China, nobody has ever believed in one country two systems since day one. As for Ma's administration, nothing would ever sour their relationship, their a-holes have always been wide opened for China's dick since like a decade ago.

China's international reputation is already bad enough. It'd only go from bad to worse if a June 4th kind of event happens in Hong Kong. Nobody is gonna sanction China. The US and the EU have barely done anything to stop Russia, let alone China. That's the saddest thing, HKers are all alone because nobody would dare to say no to China nowadays.

However I too think that China won't play a Tiananmen in HK. Hong Kong is like the only way out for many Mainland Chinese, it's where they put there money in and many of the rich would choose to naturalize as a HK citizen. Not to mention the fleeing of international investment and incorporation. Businessmen believe that Hong Kong is one of the very few places in East Asia where there's rule of law and fair legal system. If Hong Kong is destroyed, China would be in danger,so I think CCP wouldn't be that stupid.
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Old 09-29-2014, 09:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Actually sometimes they do. Hong Kong has won several battles by protesting, for instance China patriotic education reform never got implemented, because of protest. .
The patriotic reform is just a local issue and does not have much to do with the central government. However this time it is different.
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Old 09-29-2014, 10:40 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,707,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
The patriotic reform is just a local issue and does not have much to do with the central government. However this time it is different.
Both are local issues, it is just the government being stupid. Do you really think people are going to notice if the nomination committee is meant to biased or not. A lot of chinese does not even know there are big protests in Hong Kong.

The only thing China would need to do is to make the selection of candidates more fair while keeping the love China, love Hong Kong requirement. The protests would be insignificant and nothing would ever happen elsewhere.

The reason this happen was because they wanted to seem strong. It backfired really badly.
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