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Old 10-20-2014, 09:58 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,278,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
I know that, but it is a stupid. For instance take a look at Russia. Putin has massive support at home due to his propaganda, but he has made the rest of the world hate him. Due to this the Russian economy is in a recession. North Korea also has plenty of support at home, is that something to cherish?

It is possible to prioritize both. China can easily have stability, but at the same time try to make most of the world not dislike them. If China keep up the current policies, China is very likely to stagnate. No country can truly become a developed nation as an island. As China stagnates, then the population will be more dissatisfied.

Also, the current leadership hurt them in other ways as well. Some political changes come way too late, because there is no way for people to push the government to do the right thing.
when you say "world", you essentially mean the US and its so-called "allies" and minions.

Russia is not hated by the rest of the world, who did you interview before coming to this conclusion?

If China keeps up the current policy, it will stagnate? How do you know? Based on what facts? Plenty of countries are doing all the "right" things, and they are still stagnating (such as Japan). What makes you think by doing the "right thing", China will prosper? And by the right thing, I suppose you mean democracy, freedom and all that sort of nice things? Is there any proof that by doing the "right thing" a country will be richer than not?

I am not saying China is the best country in the world and doesn't have major problems. What is sickening to me is people simply taking it for granted that every country should adopt western ideology and follow the west in how to run their countries. Why can't we give other country the option to choose their own path?
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,132,830 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
when you say "world", you essentially mean the US and its so-called "allies" and minions.

Russia is not hated by the rest of the world, who did you interview before coming to this conclusion?
The truth is, most of the rest of the world are US's allies or minions. So yeah I think it's safe to say most of the rest of the world are not the biggest fan of Russia at this moment.

China will stagnate, it's just a matter of time, just like every other powerful empires in the history, maybe next year or maybe 50 years from now, but I don't think its poor diplomacy will be the main reason. Its other problems are way worse and far more dangerous.
China's reputation is super bad but it's not something to be worried about tbqh, at least in the foreseeable future.
Russia, on the other hand, doesn't have the luxury to keep being such a crazy *****.

Last edited by Greysholic; 10-20-2014 at 10:13 AM..
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
But you cannot have consistent improvement of living standard if you make yourself an island. There is no country that has gotten rich that way. You can grow for a while, but then you stagnate as the country focus is on stability instead of doing what needs to be done. .
I don't know what you mean by island. China is intertwined with most countries in the world. I don't see any major country that is keeping a distance from China because they can't agree on certain things.

Canada used to be one of them. It did little business with China and chose to completely depend on the US. Now after the 2008 crisis, even Canada realizes it is stupid and scrambling to fix relations with China, bringing more investment and trade and reduce dependency on the US.

Britain and France, core allies of the US, stopped seeing Dalai Lama years ago and probably will never dream of doing so any time soon. Why? not because all of a sudden they like what the CCP does, but because their economy is intertwined with China and they can't afford even trying to make China an island. China is no Cuba.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
How about improving your diplomacy so that no country has interest in bullying China? .
oh, you mean by being a nice guy you are not bullied? China tried that, remember? Then it suffered a hundred years of humiliation, bullied by countries as tiny as Portugal and Belgium. No?

You may tell me to get past history, but TRUST me, it still doesn't change. You can avoid being bullied only by being feared, not being liked. Western countries probably won't engaged in outright military invasion than they used to, but finance/money wars are happening every minute.

Remember the Asian financial crisis? What did Thailand/Korea etc do to deserve that?

Remember Japan's property bubble and its burst and 10 lost years (or 20 years)? That's what the US did to its minions. Why don't you answer the question why Nixon bullies UK/France/Japan and forced them to appreciate in the Plaza Accord, with absolutely no justifiable reason? Is it good evidence that by listening to the US, you won't be bullied?

Improve diplomacy so that no country wants to bully China? No thanks. China is too smart to buy that.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:10 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,278,474 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
The truth is, most of the rest of the world are US's allies or minions. So yeah I think it's safe to say most of the rest of the world are not the biggest fan of Russia at this moment.
true. But with only 20% of the world GDP (compared with 40% after WII), as long as huge debt and massive military spending, let's see how long that will last.

You and me are both young enough to see the end of that world order.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:12 AM
 
2,564 posts, read 2,184,035 times
Reputation: 1816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
I know that, but it is a stupid. For instance take a look at Russia. Putin has massive support at home due to his propaganda, but he has made the rest of the world hate him. Due to this the Russian economy is in a recession. North Korea also has plenty of support at home, is that something to cherish?

It is possible to prioritize both. China can easily have stability, but at the same time try to make most of the world not dislike them. If China keep up the current policies, China is very likely to stagnate. No country can truly become a developed nation as an island. As China stagnates, then the population will be more dissatisfied.

Also, the current leadership hurt them in other ways as well. Some political changes come way too late, because there is no way for people to push the government to do the right thing.
Of course I agree that there is some merit to being "liked" by other nations. Everyone wants to have more friends than enemies. It's the same for individual human beings, same for a nation. Unfortunately, that item is not and has rarely been on top of the agenda of current and past Chinese administrations.

I actually would like to cite another period in Chinese history, the Northern and Southern Song Dynasty, when China was "liked" and very much appreciated by neighboring cultures. Song dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Several interesting aspects of the Song Dynasty that could provide some perspective for China's governing regime today:

- The Song is perceived by most Chinese today as "weak" and "corrupt" due to its ongoing conflicts with northern nomadic cultures like Mongols and the Jin Dynasty.

- However, it is also one of the most resilient dynasties in Chinese history, with uninterrupted rule of 319 years, trumped only by the Han Dynasty. Yes, they are perceived as "weak" but they must've done something right to last so long. In contrast, the most militaristic dynasty in China - the Qin - managed to pull together only 17 years of rule under a unified China. Clearly strength does not equate to long-term resilience.

- Despite its ongoing conflicts with the Mongols, Song China boasted a high degree of administrative sophistication along with cultural and scientific prosperity that was unprecedented at the time.

- Religious and cultural freedom was at an all-time high in Song China: it was also a time when China openly embraced and absorbed foreign religious values like Buddhism, Islam, and even Judaism with the establishment of the first Jewish settlement in Kaifeng City, the capital of Southern Song Dynasty.

- Although it suffered various military defeats at the hands of the more militaristic Jin and Mongols, Song China had the most sophisticated and well-developed economy in the world. Song government's annual trade and taxation income was so high that it was nearly 10x the net income of the Ming Dynasty government almost 300 years after its demise.

If there is any period in Chinese history when China was more "loved" and "liked" by its own people and outsiders alike, it would have to be Song China.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,132,830 times
Reputation: 4566
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
true. But with only 20% of the world GDP (compared with 40% after WII), as long as huge debt and massive military spending, let's see how long that will last.

You and me are both young enough to see the end of that world order.
Well, I'd say it's gonna last for quite a long time. I don't think any of these "minions" and allies of the US would really switch to China or Russia's side tbqh.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:24 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,706,138 times
Reputation: 1714
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
when you say "world", you essentially mean the US and its so-called "allies" and minions.

Russia is not hated by the rest of the world, who did you interview before coming to this conclusion?

If China keeps up the current policy, it will stagnate? How do you know? Based on what facts? Plenty of countries are doing all the "right" things, and they are still stagnating (such as Japan). What makes you think by doing the "right thing", China will prosper? And by the right thing, I suppose you mean democracy, freedom and all that sort of nice things? Is there any proof that by doing the "right thing" a country will be richer than not?

I am not saying China is the best country in the world and doesn't have major problems. What is sickening to me is people simply taking it for granted that every country should adopt western ideology and follow the west in how to run their countries. Why can't we give other country the option to choose their own path?
You think there is two worlds against each other, but not really. China don't have too many friends. You got Russia, because they are in the same situation. And then what Iran? Venezuela? North Korea? It is not west against the rest. India, Vietnam, Philippines, etc are no friends of China either.

You say that Japan is stagnating, but they are already a rich country. China is not going to become a rich country with only Russia and North Korea as their only friends.

And I'm not saying China need to implement democracy. I am just saying China need to open up, not close down. China need to get friends instead of thinking that economic power is everything. You claim China failed because it was too nice. But the truth is China had always failed because they have a tendency to be scared of everything foreign and too much focus on stability instead of doing what is right.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,776 posts, read 5,132,830 times
Reputation: 4566
^It's probably off-topic but Russia really shouldn't turn to China for friendship. China is way too overwhelming for a country with an economy size of Italy. Countries like Taiwan and Australia are pretty much doomed in the long run. Being completely dependent on China's market is just stupid in so many levels.
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Old 10-20-2014, 11:01 AM
 
6,726 posts, read 6,615,943 times
Reputation: 2386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
You think there is two worlds against each other, but not really. China don't have too many friends. You got Russia, because they are in the same situation. And then what Iran? Venezuela? North Korea? It is not west against the rest. India, Vietnam, Philippines, etc are no friends of China either.

You say that Japan is stagnating, but they are already a rich country. China is not going to become a rich country with only Russia and North Korea as their only friends.

And I'm not saying China need to implement democracy. I am just saying China need to open up, not close down. China need to get friends instead of thinking that economic power is everything. You claim China failed because it was too nice. But the truth is China had always failed because they have a tendency to be scared of everything foreign and too much focus on stability instead of doing what is right.
Big countries have no real "friends" (whatever it means).
Who are the real friends of the US? There are some followers but no friends. China has a normal relationship with almost all countries in the world so far.

The US is hated by more countries in the world than China is. But who cares?
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Old 10-20-2014, 11:37 AM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,706,138 times
Reputation: 1714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
Big countries have no real "friends" (whatever it means).
Who are the real friends of the US? There are some followers but no friends. China has a normal relationship with almost all countries in the world so far.

The US is hated by more countries in the world than China is. But who cares?
Those followers you talk about, are what I call friends. My point is China, does not have those kind of followers and that makes China weak. No country can stay as an island. For China to truly succeed, they will need to keep opening up their economy, not start doing the opposite.

Yes, US got more enemies because it is the most powerful country. But have you looked at what countries are US enemies. North Korea? Cuba? Venezuela? Argentina? Russia? Iran? etc. They are all pathetic countries with stagnant economies.

China of course has normal trade relations with most countries, but very few countries doesn't. But what China does not have is friends, or followers which you like to call them. How can Chinese products truly compete if people only buy them because they are lower in price.
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