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Old 10-20-2014, 12:13 PM
 
6,725 posts, read 6,599,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Those followers you talk about, are what I call friends. My point is China, does not have those kind of followers and that makes China weak. No country can stay as an island. For China to truly succeed, they will need to keep opening up their economy, not start doing the opposite.

Yes, US got more enemies because it is the most powerful country. But have you looked at what countries are US enemies. North Korea? Cuba? Venezuela? Argentina? Russia? Iran? etc. They are all pathetic countries with stagnant economies.

China of course has normal trade relations with most countries, but very few countries doesn't. But what China does not have is friends, or followers which you like to call them. How can Chinese products truly compete if people only buy them because they are lower in price.
China's strategy is "nonalignment" to begin with. China will not befriend some countries to attack others.

Again, big nations have no real friends. If a person is very powerful and ambitious, he has no real friends either.
What is important is to maintain a normal relation with others. That's all.

China makes almost all computers and cell phones in the world. Lower price? I think not. They do make some cheap stuff to occupy low-end markets though.
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Old 10-20-2014, 12:16 PM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,253,275 times
Reputation: 7578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
You think there is two worlds against each other, but not really. China don't have too many friends. You got Russia, because they are in the same situation. And then what Iran? Venezuela? North Korea? It is not west against the rest. India, Vietnam, Philippines, etc are no friends of China either.

You say that Japan is stagnating, but they are already a rich country. China is not going to become a rich country with only Russia and North Korea as their only friends.

And I'm not saying China need to implement democracy. I am just saying China need to open up, not close down. China need to get friends instead of thinking that economic power is everything. You claim China failed because it was too nice. But the truth is China had always failed because they have a tendency to be scared of everything foreign and too much focus on stability instead of doing what is right.
If you think China considers Russia as "friend", you know really little about China. China will never trust Russia. It trusts Russia less than it does the US. However, Russia can be really useful when dealing with the arrogant west allies who act as if they own the world.

The same with North Korea, friend? No. Tool? possibly.

How is China not opening up? What is not open that makes you unsatisfied? please enlighten me.

And please don't give too much credit for this "friendship" thing between countries. They don't exist. There are countries 1) who need protection in exchange for protection (Korea, Taiwan, Singapore etc.), 2) countries who need implicit/explicit support for their dictatorship ruling (Saudi, Qatar etc), and 3) countries who are struggling to maintain their world influence with the help of a bully (UK, France etc).

Friendship? Are you kidding? Is spying on Angela Merkel a symbol of friendship?

I am still waiting for the answer for what kind of friendship it means for the US to force UK/France/Germany/Japan to appreciate their currency without justification. No one cares to answer.
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Old 10-20-2014, 12:23 PM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,253,275 times
Reputation: 7578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post

Yes, US got more enemies because it is the most powerful country. But have you looked at what countries are US enemies. North Korea? Cuba? Venezuela? Argentina? Russia? Iran? etc. They are all pathetic countries with stagnant economies.
Don't agree.

US was the richest country ever since the late 1800s/early 1900s. I don't think as many countries hated it at that time, before it decided to act as world cop, taking planting puppet governments across the world as a hobby.

Whether people hate you or love you depend on what you choose to do.
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Old 10-20-2014, 01:02 PM
 
2,557 posts, read 2,176,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Don't agree.

US was the richest country ever since the late 1800s/early 1900s. I don't think as many countries hated it at that time, before it decided to act as world cop, taking planting puppet governments across the world as a hobby.

Whether people hate you or love you depend on what you choose to do.
I believe the same thing also applies to China. Which political path China decides to take, as well as how the Chinese authorities treat their own citizens, can certainly have an impact on how people perceive China as a whole.

The thing is, China is no longer a poor third world country anymore. The actions and decisions that China takes today have global impact and global repercussions far beyond China's own borders. The Chinese Foreign Ministry's oft cited excuse that "this is a internal domestic affair" may be valid 20 or 30 years ago when China was more insulated and less developed, but not now when it is undisputedly the most central player in the global arena alongside the United States, whether it be trade, international financial stability, consumption, climate change, and/or regional security. The fact of the matter is, China is not some pathetic local village idiot like NK or some regional bully like Russia - those countries can act however crazy they like and the world could care less.

I'm not seeking to change the way Communist Party governs. It is an authoritarian single-party state. It is what it is, but what it does domestically can have global repercussions.

Last edited by bostonkid123; 10-20-2014 at 01:52 PM..
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Old 10-20-2014, 02:00 PM
 
3,123 posts, read 2,700,820 times
Reputation: 1713
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Don't agree.

US was the richest country ever since the late 1800s/early 1900s. I don't think as many countries hated it at that time, before it decided to act as world cop, taking planting puppet governments across the world as a hobby.

Whether people hate you or love you depend on what you choose to do.
US was a lot less powerful at that time and did not have an active foreign policy.


US got really powerful after the war, and as you said they forced countries to follow their agenda. That lead to some countries hating the US, when Bush got in power he almost alienated Europe as well. However, during the last years then US has become more diplomatic, while China is getting more aggressive. China is currently threaten countries to make sure they don't say anything bad about China, they try to force countries to not allow Dalai Lama to visit, and they have big fights about irrelevant country/sea borders.

It is due to the stupid Chinese idea that countries can have no true friends. Of course you cannot have countries which are 100% loyal. But it is much better to have most of the countries in the world like you, instead of having most of the countries dislike you.

Quote:
If you think China considers Russia as "friend", you know really little about China. China will never trust Russia. It trusts Russia less than it does the US. However, Russia can be really useful when dealing with the arrogant west allies who act as if they own the world.

The same with North Korea, friend? No. Tool? possibly.
Here you are just making China situation even weaker. So even the countries who are closest to China are just tools for their agenda

Quote:
How is China not opening up? What is not open that makes you unsatisfied? please enlighten me.
Take a look at the Hong Kong protest. Not only did they do the worst decisions possible, but the censorship in China has been massive and unprecedented. They are deleting forum posts which do not have the right view, the media didn't even talk about the protest in the beginning, then they started to blame the US, blocked media like BBC and instagram, etc. How is that opening up?

But also diplomatically China is getting worse compared to just some years ago. The relationship with Japan has totally collapsed. They have alienated much of Europe who are getting closer and closer to the US. I see that in a few years, media have stopped talking about the success of China and instead started talking about political oppression. China is pretty much following in the footsteps of Russia, and that's not a good thing. They need to go back to what really worked.

Even economically the performance has been weak. From 2000 to 2008 china has seen 600% growth in exports. From 08 to 12 during the middle of the crisis China export grew with 40% and during the last 2 years the exports have grown with only 17%. Also indexes like Ease of Doing Business or economic freedom indexes show no real improvement in China. China has stopped opening up, and if they keep doing that then China will face stagnation. Just like Russia is facing stagnation right now.

Quote:
Friendship? Are you kidding? Is spying on Angela Merkel a symbol of friendship?
Actually interesting that you bring this up. China is also spying on political leaders. If they were caught it will lead to no consequences at all, because we expect nothing more from China.

It is the fact that we expected more from the US, that lead to the diplomatic crisis in the first place. However, it didn't majorly affect the relationship between US and Europe. Diplomatically it was just a small incident. What really matters is how you act over the long term.

Last edited by Camlon; 10-20-2014 at 02:31 PM..
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Old 10-22-2014, 02:25 AM
 
4,679 posts, read 3,609,147 times
Reputation: 7380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
US was a lot less powerful at that time and did not have an active foreign policy.


US got really powerful after the war, and as you said they forced countries to follow their agenda. That lead to some countries hating the US, when Bush got in power he almost alienated Europe as well. However, during the last years then US has become more diplomatic, while China is getting more aggressive. China is currently threaten countries to make sure they don't say anything bad about China, they try to force countries to not allow Dalai Lama to visit, and they have big fights about irrelevant country/sea borders.

It is due to the stupid Chinese idea that countries can have no true friends. Of course you cannot have countries which are 100% loyal. But it is much better to have most of the countries in the world like you, instead of having most of the countries dislike you.


Here you are just making China situation even weaker. So even the countries who are closest to China are just tools for their agenda


Take a look at the Hong Kong protest. Not only did they do the worst decisions possible, but the censorship in China has been massive and unprecedented. They are deleting forum posts which do not have the right view, the media didn't even talk about the protest in the beginning, then they started to blame the US, blocked media like BBC and instagram, etc. How is that opening up?

But also diplomatically China is getting worse compared to just some years ago. The relationship with Japan has totally collapsed. They have alienated much of Europe who are getting closer and closer to the US. I see that in a few years, media have stopped talking about the success of China and instead started talking about political oppression. China is pretty much following in the footsteps of Russia, and that's not a good thing. They need to go back to what really worked.

Even economically the performance has been weak. From 2000 to 2008 china has seen 600% growth in exports. From 08 to 12 during the middle of the crisis China export grew with 40% and during the last 2 years the exports have grown with only 17%. Also indexes like Ease of Doing Business or economic freedom indexes show no real improvement in China. China has stopped opening up, and if they keep doing that then China will face stagnation. Just like Russia is facing stagnation right now.


Actually interesting that you bring this up. China is also spying on political leaders. If they were caught it will lead to no consequences at all, because we expect nothing more from China.

It is the fact that we expected more from the US, that lead to the diplomatic crisis in the first place. However, it didn't majorly affect the relationship between US and Europe. Diplomatically it was just a small incident. What really matters is how you act over the long term.

Seriously, the indignation over spying is so dramatic and silly. Everyone spy, politically and industrially. In fact, in the 90's both France and Israel spied on the US the most for various geopolitical and industrial reasons.

Even little teenage girls spy on each other and their boyfriends etc etc etc, so everyone need to get used to it and stop being crybabies. The US gets all upset about Chinese spying when the US is the biggest and the best spymasters in world history.
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Old 10-22-2014, 07:52 AM
 
2,557 posts, read 2,176,886 times
Reputation: 1810
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Seriously, the indignation over spying is so dramatic and silly. Everyone spy, politically and industrially. In fact, in the 90's both France and Israel spied on the US the most for various geopolitical and industrial reasons.

Even little teenage girls spy on each other and their boyfriends etc etc etc, so everyone need to get used to it and stop being crybabies. The US gets all upset about Chinese spying when the US is the biggest and the best spymasters in world history.
And I remember China blocking Google in January 2010 - and China's state-owned news CCTV produced this long piece blasting "Google Maps for showing satellite images of government compounds and state secrets". China gets all hyped up over something as innocent as Google Maps that's in the public domain for the entire world... man talk about paranoia.
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