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Old 10-21-2014, 03:51 AM
 
479 posts, read 678,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish View Post
You are wrong about the one child policy.
Poor families in the countryside usually have 2, 3, 4 children.
They don't care about laws or fines.
Middle class have only one. Some rich people have multiple, but they are like the 1% of Chinese population. Government employees must follow the rule strictly too.
Family members of forced abortion victim in China cite continued harassment - CNN.com This is one individual, but it did happen to farmers. China has no problem victimizing their citizens. The citizens aren't uprising. If they ever do, China is in a mess of trouble.
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Old 10-21-2014, 08:39 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,265,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smommaof3 View Post
When they had the one child law, it was only really enforced in the farming communities and poor cities. Rich couples paid small fines for having sons or just went on vacation in foreign countries and came back when the child was born. China has a lot of things to overcome within it's own country before it becomes a first world country, let alone the world's super power.
It baffles me why people who have absolutely no life experience in China tell stories about the country.

The one child policy only affects the poor? Are you seriously? There are tons of families in large cities such as Shanghai might have a second child if they are allowed to by law, and these are middle class folks making good salary, some of whom are richer than typical Americans.

Don't forget all government employees are not allow to have second child too, including high government officials, state companies bosses, university professors. If they do, they will be fired.

I have a friend who is a university lecturer and her husband runs a business in Shanghai. They own a VW and a BMW (the price is about 3x as high as in the US for the same model) and wanted to have a second child for years but didn't because the wife will lose her job.

and you really think the policy only affects farming communities and poor cities?
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Old 10-21-2014, 08:46 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,265,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smommaof3 View Post
Family members of forced abortion victim in China cite continued harassment - CNN.com This is one individual, but it did happen to farmers. China has no problem victimizing their citizens. The citizens aren't uprising. If they ever do, China is in a mess of trouble.
oh, the CNN, the best and more reliable source of impartial news!

Just so you know, the CNN has published many articles criticising how the government don't compensate citizens enough for relocating them as a result of urban redevelopment, sometimes posting horrible photos as evidences.

I don't deny that abuse of power does exist, but anyone who has any real life experience in Chinese cities would know that most old apartment owners dream about being relocated because the compensation can be crazily high and impossible to resist. My former landlord received a handsome US$250,000 for her tiny 500sf apartment in central Shanghai, more than enough to buy a detached home in most American cities.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:12 AM
 
2,561 posts, read 2,180,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
oh, the CNN, the best and more reliable source of impartial news!

Just so you know, the CNN has published many articles criticising how the government don't compensate citizens enough for relocating them as a result of urban redevelopment, sometimes posting horrible photos as evidences.

I don't deny that abuse of power does exist, but anyone who has any real life experience in Chinese cities would know that most old apartment owners dream about being relocated because the compensation can be crazily high and impossible to resist. My former landlord received a handsome US$250,000 for her tiny 500sf apartment in central Shanghai, more than enough to buy a detached home in most American cities.
That is Shanghai, and Shanghai and the rest of China are two different worlds.

How about suburban Xi'an? Or Northwest Shaan'xi/Gansu province where farmers are forced off their land due to mass relocation with bare minimum compensation? Go to Beijing's State Petitions and Letters office on any day, and you'd find peasants from faraway provinces crying injustice and abuse.

Abuse of power and government-developer collusion in the property sector are probably the number one source of public resentment in China. It's also another reason why many of China's 2nd and 3rd tier cities are now filled ugly cement forests that are eating up surrounding farm land and resulted in the destruction of so much historical neighborhoods and landmarks. Beijing used to be filled with intimate hutong courtyard neighborhoods just 20 years ago. Now they are all gutted by monstrous cement blocks.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:52 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,265,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
That is Shanghai, and Shanghai and the rest of China are two different worlds.

How about suburban Xi'an? Or Northwest Shaan'xi/Gansu province where farmers are forced off their land due to mass relocation with bare minimum compensation? Go to Beijing's State Petitions and Letters office on any day, and you'd find peasants from faraway provinces crying injustice and abuse.

Abuse of power and government-developer collusion in the property sector are probably the number one source of public resentment in China. It's also another reason why many of China's 2nd and 3rd tier cities are now filled ugly cement forests that are eating up surrounding farm land and resulted in the destruction of so much historical neighborhoods and landmarks. Beijing used to be filled with intimate hutong courtyard neighborhoods just 20 years ago. Now they are all gutted by monstrous cement blocks.
well, I admit many of the problem you mentioned. In the less advanced regions, government power abuse can be still rampant.

However, the fact that large coastal cities are becoming more transparent is a sign of progress. For a massive country like China, you have to start somewhere. Public service for example, has improved immensely in Shanghai and the public servants have a much better attitude "serving" the people, than act as if they are doing a favor to the taxpayers. The difference is quite dramatic in the past 20 years. Inland provinces are lagging behind, give it some time.

I have mixed feelings about Hutong etc.. I am sure the government is not doing the best thing to preserve history, but those Hutong have horrible living conditions, will you want to live in them? It is easy to say "let's preserve history and culture and not let corporate profit take over", but it is equally unrealistic for central Beijing, where land is at sky high prices, to be dominated by lowrise low density hutongs, isn't it? I don't know the perfect solution. I think Beijing should probably have left the old city alone and build an entire new modern city somewhere else, like they did in Suzhou, or Paris. But it is too late.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:59 AM
 
2,561 posts, read 2,180,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
well, I admit many of the problem you mentioned. In the less advanced regions, government power abuse can be still rampant.

However, the fact that large coastal cities are becoming more transparent is a sign of progress. For a massive country like China, you have to start somewhere. Public service for example, has improved immensely in Shanghai and the public servants have a much better attitude "serving" the people, than act as if they are doing a favor to the taxpayers. The difference is quite dramatic in the past 20 years. Inland provinces are lagging behind, give it some time.

I have mixed feelings about Hutong etc.. I am sure the government is not doing the best thing to preserve history, but those Hutong have horrible living conditions, will you want to live in them? It is easy to say "let's preserve history and culture and not let corporate profit take over", but it is equally unrealistic for central Beijing, where land is at sky high prices, to be dominated by lowrise low density hutongs, isn't it? I don't know the perfect solution. I think Beijing should probably have left the old city alone and build an entire new modern city somewhere else, like they did in Suzhou, or Paris. But it is too late.
Actually if you go today, most of the remaining Hutongs and courtyard houses have vastly improved and renovated conditions. In fact, they have become such a rarity now that only the super rich can afford the courtyard houses in Beijing (one of my grandmothers' sisters used to live in such a courtyard complex until she and her neighbors "traded up" for an apartment outside 3rd ring road... it was hardly a fair trade-off because most Hutongs were very very centrally located within 2nd ring road in Beijing and would command astronomical property values today, but they really had no choice at the time as it was a fiat government decision - either move out and receive some peanut compensation or get harassed by thugs hired by the developers, take your pick...).
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Old 10-21-2014, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Earth
4,520 posts, read 3,100,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Actually if you go today, most of the remaining Hutongs and courtyard houses have vastly improved and renovated conditions. In fact, they have become such a rarity now that only the super rich can afford the courtyard houses in Beijing (one of my grandmothers' sisters used to live in such a courtyard complex until she and her neighbors "traded up" for an apartment outside 3rd ring road... it was hardly a fair trade-off because most Hutongs were very very centrally located within 2nd ring road in Beijing and would command astronomical property values today, but they really had no choice at the time as it was a fiat government decision - either move out and receive some peanut compensation or get harassed by thugs hired by the developers, take your pick...).
arm the peasants and give them mao's "on guerrilla war" if they have nothing to lose...
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Old 10-21-2014, 01:54 PM
 
4,687 posts, read 3,615,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerous-Boy View Post
arm the peasants and give them mao's "on guerrilla war" if they have nothing to lose...
I am sure you would love to see China descent into total chaos and rebellion. Once the evil CCP falls, then "democracy" will reign and the whole country will enter paradise and open its arms to grungy hipsters with backpacks using their parents' credit cards to "see the world". For the hundred of millions of Chinese who will have lost everything in the impending civil war and face despair and starvation, who cares? It makes for awesome TV!

It would be a great day really for the neo-con commie haters, the liberal bleeding hearts and all the nutjobs in between who don't know anything about China except what they are spoon fed from the likes of CNN and Wikipedia....
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Old 10-21-2014, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Earth
4,520 posts, read 3,100,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
I am sure you would love to see China descent into total chaos and rebellion. Once the evil CCP falls, then "democracy" will reign and the whole country will enter paradise and open its arms to grungy hipsters with backpacks using their parents' credit cards to "see the world". For the hundred of millions of Chinese who will have lost everything in the impending civil war and face despair and starvation, who cares? It makes for awesome TV!

It would be a great day really for the neo-con commie haters, the liberal bleeding hearts and all the nutjobs in between who don't know anything about China except what they are spoon fed from the likes of CNN and Wikipedia....
You need to look at the postive aspect. Its not going to turn into an islamic republic with shariah.
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Old 10-21-2014, 02:31 PM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,265,341 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
I am sure you would love to see China descent into total chaos and rebellion. Once the evil CCP falls, then "democracy" will reign and the whole country will enter paradise and open its arms to grungy hipsters with backpacks using their parents' credit cards to "see the world". For the hundred of millions of Chinese who will have lost everything in the impending civil war and face despair and starvation, who cares? It makes for awesome TV!

It would be a great day really for the neo-con commie haters, the liberal bleeding hearts and all the nutjobs in between who don't know anything about China except what they are spoon fed from the likes of CNN and Wikipedia....
that is exactly how most westerns think when it comes to the China issue.

Freedom! Democracy! High pay! No slave workers! Clean air! Have as many children as people want! They have all these nice things in mind assuming all Chinese citizens should deserve - if they don't have it, the country must be doing something wrong and should immediately correct it.

What will happen if all the changes are made? Will it lead to long term prosperity or chaos and poverty? They don't care, because they are not the people who live in China and may suffer the consequences. So they just keep arguing for these, not realizing they are completely out of touch with reality.

On some level, I am certain many want to see a failed China because the possibility that some country might rise and challenge the west dominated world order is unimaginable and unacceptable. After all, it is the rising China which is consuming too much resources so that gas price is $3 a gallon instead of $1 15 years ago.
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