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Old 10-21-2014, 07:38 PM
 
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"On some level, I am certain many want to see a failed China because the possibility that some country might rise and challenge the west dominated world order is unimaginable and unacceptable."....


You shouldn't imagine, because this is the predominant reason for most people in the West. Many of the commentators on this site certainly do not have any good will toward China or the Chinese. Of course they sugarcoat it with an excuse about the CCP not being Chinese. But they also know that if the CCP fails tomorrow, it's the Chinese people who will pay dearly, and China condemned to another 200 years of disaster and backwardness.
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:51 PM
 
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Guys calm down. You and I all know that the CCP is NOT going to fail tomorrow, or next month, or next, or even in 10 or 20 years time. Anyone with some basic knowledge about China knows that. Why? Because it is too entrenched in Chinese society already. Plus the economy is doing relatively well so why should it be overthrown when most people in China are overall content with the status quo? Plus the CCP also controls the the army, the security agencies, and all the power apparatus down to the county level, so that's always the Party's last resort should there be the very unlikely event that there is a revolution tomorrow. And there won't be. So calm down and stop getting paranoid about "westerners", "imperialists", "ulterior forces", and other real/imaginary beings about to overthrow the CCP. The Party is here to stay for the time being, and most likely for the decades to come.
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:10 AM
 
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^ nobody is saying the CCP is a great party doing all the great things. But the fact is, despite all the problems plaguing China, the CCP has been doing a good job in improving people's living standards. Millions of people have personal cars at home (my brother has two including a Japanese SUV), this is something completely unimaginable even 15 years ago. Tens of thousand of people can afford traveling overseas (try spend sometime in Paris or Rome or Istanbul, you heard Mandarin everywhere), while 20 years ago taking a train trip 4 hours away is a luxury. Cities are building subways like it is SimCity and more and more parents are sending their children to the UK, US and Canada to study. The current Chinese generation is enjoying a life their parents could hardly imagine in their most fancy day dream.

Give me one example where another country achieve this much in a matter of 15-20 years.

Of course there are a plethora of issues - food safety, pollution, income gap, corruption. It is expected and will gradually be dealt with. Many of you guys don't realize the difficulty of running a country, a very poor country with a massive population. You really think those free elected political parties in western countries will do a better job than the CCP? A country can't be managed using pure idealism (things like democracy or freedom) and everything has to be dealt with in a practical manner. The CCP is not perfect or even great, but what's a better solution, I mean something different which won't affect people's living standards (and growth, jobs, etc)?

I won't say the CCP will stay forever, or even remain the same in the next 20 years. Things will change. The increasingly wealthy Chinese will demand more say in running the country and cities and will cease to be satisfied with owning a car and all the tech gadgets. It will be naïve to think the CCP itself is one party with completely aligned interest. It has all the different factions with conflicting interest. They fight internally all the time, just like the democratic and republican. But it is invisible to a large extent. While I highly doubt the Chinese soil will foster a new independent political party that will rise to challenge the CCP (it is way too large and entrenched), it is very likely the CCP itself may gradually split into two or more branches with different ideas. Who are we to say that's not best for China's political future, instead of insisting the CCP should collapse and give way to new political parties?

It is the live of 1.4 billion people we are talking about here. It is a bit cliché but stability is of primary concern. A US/EU type of recession due to any sudden change in the political landscape will result in tens of millions of people losing jobs and being thrown back into poverty. Of course the self righteous westerns will not suffer or care - they will be watching all this on their LED TV in their large living room like it is a reality show.
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:21 AM
 
2,561 posts, read 2,179,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
I won't say the CCP will stay forever, or even remain the same in the next 20 years. Things will change. The increasingly wealthy Chinese will demand more say in running the country and cities and will cease to be satisfied with owning a car and all the tech gadgets. It will be naïve to think the CCP itself is one party with completely aligned interest. It has all the different factions with conflicting interest. They fight internally all the time, just like the democratic and republican. But it is invisible to a large extent. While I highly doubt the Chinese soil will foster a new independent political party that will rise to challenge the CCP (it is way too large and entrenched), it is very likely the CCP itself may gradually split into two or more branches with different ideas. Who are we to say that's not best for China's political future, instead of insisting the CCP should collapse and give way to new political parties?

It is the live of 1.4 billion people we are talking about here. It is a bit cliché but stability is of primary concern. A US/EU type of recession due to any sudden change in the political landscape will result in tens of millions of people losing jobs and being thrown back into poverty. Of course the self righteous westerns will not suffer or care - they will be watching all this on their LED TV in their large living room like it is a reality show.
I completely agree with the bolded words. Highly doubt there will be any independent parties rising up to challenge the CCP from the grassroots. The Party's done a pretty thorough job in terms of nipping any independent political organization in its infancy. Ideally, everyone would like to see the CCP peacefully resolve and reform China's political situation, whether it breaks into 2 factions/parties or allows independent parties to form and challenge it in a real competitive election for the National People's Congress (not the current useless NPC where 99.8% of all delegates vote yes for every CCP policy 100% of the time - why even bother with NPC if you've already made the decision behind closed doors...). Another possibility would be to invite the KMT back to China to form a true democratic coalition government, just like how it was initially intended to be in 1946 before civil war erupted between the two sides. KMT and CCP both claim to represent the interests of China, why not sit down, talk it out, and share power.
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,774 posts, read 5,122,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Another possibility would be to invite the KMT back to China to form a true democratic coalition government, just like how it was initially intended to be in 1946 before civil war erupted between the two sides. KMT and CCP both claim to represent the interests of China, why not sit down, talk it out, and share power.
Hooray, KMT can get the hell back to China. Taiwan can finally get rid of this pathetic pile of crap, thank goodness.

KMT is not gonna do any good. They are probably slightly less corruptive than CCP, that's it, nothing more. Choosing between KMT and CCP is like choosing between dog poop and murderous cobra, dog poop won't kill you, but it still stinks.

They don't seem that bad now because they only have power in Taiwan, a small island with merely 23 million people, and there were some external pressure from the US for democratization, so Taiwan seems like a vibrant democracy now(no matter how sick that democracy is internally). The politicians of KMT have always been absolute idiots and morons, they have never been capable of anything other than antagonizing each other. A country as massive as China is way too overwhelming for such stupid farts.

Last edited by Greysholic; 10-22-2014 at 08:52 AM..
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Old 10-22-2014, 10:43 AM
 
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So what? Nothing is going to happen. By the time the U.S became power it was taking over the philippines and puerto rico from the spanish. Is china doing anthing like that? No
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Old 10-22-2014, 02:15 PM
 
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The KMT almost lost all of China to the Japanese. Then, it lost little taiwan to the DPP. Now it's back but going downhill again. Inviting the KMT back to China would just kill that loser party forever.

The only realistic hope for any political competition is for the CCP to splinter itself, which is not so farfetched a scenario.

China does need competitive political parties in order to maintain the quality of governance and to fight corruption. The current internal purges are not working at all because the unitary party itself is breeding the weed of corruption as quickly as Xi can chop them.
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Old 10-22-2014, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Taipei
6,774 posts, read 5,122,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
The KMT almost lost all of China to the Japanese. Then, it lost little taiwan to the DPP. Now it's back but going downhill again. Inviting the KMT back to China would just kill that loser party forever.
KMT=loser party. Well said.
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Old 10-23-2014, 01:48 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,357,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida93 View Post
So what? Nothing is going to happen. By the time the U.S became power it was taking over the philippines and puerto rico from the spanish. Is china doing anthing like that? No
It's a vastly different world from that time. At the same time this was happening, the sun was setting on then still-mighty European empires. The "international community" was basically comprised of these empires. Imperialism was their thing, and as long as the big empires respected eachothers' spoils, it was acceptable in that international community's eyes to take them over.

The interceding century has seen many nations burst into independence as these empires have dies off, to varying degrees of success, of course. International trade and commerce has grown on a level that no one could have imagined in the 1800's. Even in just the last half century, the changes in how the political world functions have been massive... if it was as it was in times past and China had its current levels of strength, you bet they'd exert their power to get what they want from Japan, Korea, Vietnam, and the Philippines - islands, territorial waters, and the natural resources under them.

The thing is that China believes that those are theirs, always have been theirs, and thus they have a right to them - they are not sending a boat to an island in the South Pacific, unloading a bunch of marines, raising the CCP flag and declaring the island's inhabitants to be subjects of China. China doesn't want to see the West take a massive dive, because that would create a massive dent in exports and impact China's growth and stability. The powers-that-be in China aren't so stupid as to think that its domestic economy, massive as it may be, could make up for such a loss.

The world doesn't have a whole lot to fear about China surpassing whatever country in whatever metric. It's just the winds of change. This is just how the world works. China is actually one of the more benign players on the international stage. People in the US (keep in mind as I say this that I am an American) have more to worry about from their militarized civic police forces than they do about China surpassing them by some metric.
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Old 10-23-2014, 02:52 AM
 
4,687 posts, read 3,614,137 times
Reputation: 7382
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
It's a vastly different world from that time. At the same time this was happening, the sun was setting on then still-mighty European empires. The "international community" was basically comprised of these empires. Imperialism was their thing, and as long as the big empires respected eachothers' spoils, it was acceptable in that international community's eyes to take them over.

The interceding century has seen many nations burst into independence as these empires have dies off, to varying degrees of success, of course. International trade and commerce has grown on a level that no one could have imagined in the 1800's. Even in just the last half century, the changes in how the political world functions have been massive... if it was as it was in times past and China had its current levels of strength, you bet they'd exert their power to get what they want from Japan, Korea, Vietnam, and the Philippines - islands, territorial waters, and the natural resources under them.

Yes and no. China has always been far stronger than these little neighbors historically. But it did not necessarily grab things as it see fit, though sometimes it did, for its own reason.

The thing is that China believes that those are theirs, always have been theirs, and thus they have a right to them - they are not sending a boat to an island in the South Pacific, unloading a bunch of marines, raising the CCP flag and declaring the island's inhabitants to be subjects of China. China doesn't want to see the West take a massive dive, because that would create a massive dent in exports and impact China's growth and stability. The powers-that-be in China aren't so stupid as to think that its domestic economy, massive as it may be, could make up for such a loss.

I have never seen footage of the "CCP flag" being raise on any of the reefs and atolls in the South China Sea. That flag is usually hung around some party school, or draped on a dead communist cadre's body as he/she lay in state....Your other points are certainly valid.


The world doesn't have a whole lot to fear about China surpassing whatever country in whatever metric. It's just the winds of change. This is just how the world works. China is actually one of the more benign players on the international stage. People in the US (keep in mind as I say this that I am an American) have more to worry about from their militarized civic police forces than they do about China surpassing them by some metric.

Agree here wholeheartedly.
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