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Old 10-09-2014, 07:50 PM
 
25,059 posts, read 23,161,410 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
^ one doesn't need to own a home to have a family. Switzerland has an even lower home ownership rate than HK.

List of countries by home ownership rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regarding the rest, I can surely tell you that China can grow this fast precisely because it doesn't have the multi-party democratic system and the government can focus on getting things done and long term planning instead of only caring about votes and the next election.

And don't forget history. Taiwan and S Korea didn't have democracy before they become this wealthy. Singapore is still largely a one party system. There are also dozens of democratic countries that are pissing poor. Democracy didn't make Bangladesh wealthy, did it? The assumption that only democracy can foster stability and prosperity is entirely wrong.

Democracy is so overrated and misunderstood as if it were the only right way of governing a country. It is NOT.
So, when are you planning on moving back to China?
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Old 10-09-2014, 08:41 PM
 
605 posts, read 465,023 times
Reputation: 1236
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
^ one doesn't need to own a home to have a family. Switzerland has an even lower home ownership rate than HK.

List of countries by home ownership rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regarding the rest, I can surely tell you that China can grow this fast precisely because it doesn't have the multi-party democratic system and the government can focus on getting things done and long term planning instead of only caring about votes and the next election.

And don't forget history. Taiwan and S Korea didn't have democracy before they become this wealthy. Singapore is still largely a one party system. There are also dozens of democratic countries that are pissing poor. Democracy didn't make Bangladesh wealthy, did it? The assumption that only democracy can foster stability and prosperity is entirely wrong.

Democracy is so overrated and misunderstood as if it were the only right way of governing a country. It is NOT.

Utter tripe.
Democracy is in fact the ONLY right way of governance for a people who have reached the level of education and cultural advancement that the Chinese have now attained. Were we talking about Rwanda or some similar society, the current authoritarianism is temporarily necessary.
Both Taiwan and S Korea realized at a certain point that in order to ascend beyond a certain level and realize their full potential, they would need to drop the authoritarian model and adopt democracy. China will come to realize this too although it seems it will be later that it should.

Pointing to democratic nations that are also poor proves nothing. Democracy is not the only factor that makes a nation wealthy. Culture and strategy play a huge part. So while it is possible for a nation to be democratic and poor, it is not possible for a nation to have a truly dynamic and creative society and economy that would lead to true superpower and 1st world status without democracy. And there are no non-democratic nations that fit that description.

Last edited by TheArchitect; 10-09-2014 at 08:50 PM..
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Old 10-09-2014, 08:48 PM
 
605 posts, read 465,023 times
Reputation: 1236
And regarding the very premise/title of this thread. Whether or not or to what extent western media understands that HK was not democratic during British rule is inconsequential. As stated by someone earlier in the thread, the HK protesters themselves are angry about Beijing (predictably) attempting to renege on prior agreements to allow a certain amount of democratic self governance in the future. So making a thread about what someone else in western media may or may not be educated about is no more than the manufacture of a diversionary strawman argument about nothing significant to the issue itself.
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Old 10-09-2014, 09:07 PM
 
2,557 posts, read 2,177,631 times
Reputation: 1810
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
^ one doesn't need to own a home to have a family. Switzerland has an even lower home ownership rate than HK.

List of countries by home ownership rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regarding the rest, I can surely tell you that China can grow this fast precisely because it doesn't have the multi-party democratic system and the government can focus on getting things done and long term planning instead of only caring about votes and the next election.

And don't forget history. Taiwan and S Korea didn't have democracy before they become this wealthy. Singapore is still largely a one party system. There are also dozens of democratic countries that are pissing poor. Democracy didn't make Bangladesh wealthy, did it? The assumption that only democracy can foster stability and prosperity is entirely wrong.

Democracy is so overrated and misunderstood as if it were the only right way of governing a country. It is NOT.
You make some good and very valid points about certain countries undergoing a state of authoritarian rule before transitioning into democratic governance. I think your South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore examples are quite accurate, and that certain East Asian societies do have a tendency to gravitate towards strong, centralized rule.

At the same time, perhaps try to put yourself in the protesters' shoes. A simple mental exercise: if you lived in China and wrote and published online that same critique of China's one-party state, what would happen to you? I can immediately think of 2 very unpleasant consequences for you personally:

1. Your internet provider/forum moderators will, under pressure from your local public security bureau, track and isolate your IP address to determine your location and real name identity.

2. Depending on the severity of your anti-government speech, you will enjoy one or more in-person visits from State Security for further questioning.

*The most immediate consequence would be deletion of your online post, along with temporary or permanent suspension of your Weibo/RenRen/QQ account - erasing the entire history of your online presence.
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Old 10-09-2014, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Taipei
6,773 posts, read 5,118,153 times
Reputation: 4565
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
^ one doesn't need to own a home to have a family. Switzerland has an even lower home ownership rate than HK.

List of countries by home ownership rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regarding the rest, I can surely tell you that China can grow this fast precisely because it doesn't have the multi-party democratic system and the government can focus on getting things done and long term planning instead of only caring about votes and the next election.

And don't forget history. Taiwan and S Korea didn't have democracy before they become this wealthy. Singapore is still largely a one party system. There are also dozens of democratic countries that are pissing poor. Democracy didn't make Bangladesh wealthy, did it? The assumption that only democracy can foster stability and prosperity is entirely wrong.
First of all you should've checked out why Switzerland and Germany have lower home ownership, there's a reason and story behind that and it's not as simple as "one doesn't need to own a home to have a family". The policy and law of property isn't the same in every country.
And housing price is just part of the reason why HKers are angry. There are certainly more to that. I am not bringing that out because I know you won't listen.

Btw Taiwanese and South Korean people didn't fight for democracy after we become wealthy. It dated back to Japanese colonization. After WWII, the dictators of both countries were both ruthless and blood-thirsty, however, people were still trying. The establishment of democracy happened after we become richer, but the process was long and struggling.(actually Taiwan is still struggling now, South Korea is doing much better)
And the establishment didn't happen just because we have "become rich". The leaders of both countries answered to people's quest then, were it for anyone else, both countries would probably stay the same.
Singapore has always been a weird case. It's pretty much the only developed country out there that remains a dictatorship.
Bangladesh isn't that democratic to begin with. It's a hybrid regime.


source: wikipedia

The greenest countries on this map are pretty much the richest countries out there.
I know you won't listen to this but one can't say that China would be as poor as India were it a democracy, simply because it has never been tested. Maybe it would, or maybe it would do even better than the US.


Quote:
Democracy is so overrated and misunderstood as if it were the only right way of governing a country. It is NOT.
And I find this sentence to be extremely sarcastic, since the person that said it is currently living in one of the most democratic countries in the world.

Last edited by Greysholic; 10-09-2014 at 10:35 PM..
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Old 10-09-2014, 10:52 PM
 
25,059 posts, read 23,161,410 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
And I find this sentence to be extremely sarcastic, since the person that said it is currently living in one of the most democratic countries in the world.
Botticelli is quite the funny character. He blasts how China's system is superior and allowed it to amass great wealth and power. So, why doesn't he move back to what has become the greatest country in the world? This is what happens when you suffer from the communist propaganda machine. He knows China's government is terrible, but he will never admit it for fear of losing face. He will continue to be in denial because, not supporting the political party of his homeland, means giving in to the West, and to *gasp* 中華民國! A good Chinese will never admit the 中華民國 did something right, they are just a backwards, poor, evil runaway province of China. How do I know all of this? My stepfather is a PRC Chinese, and even after living with us for 10 years, he still refuses to accept the CCP is evil, because it made China great. Like botticelli, he has no plans to move back to China anytime soon, of course.

I also speak as someone who had half of his family living in the Eastern Bloc (Soviet Union aligned countries), I am not totally ignorant of the power of communist propaganda. My family's country had a State Security Bureau that functioned similarly to North Korea's. Secret police everywhere

Last edited by theunbrainwashed; 10-09-2014 at 11:02 PM..
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Old 10-09-2014, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Taipei
6,773 posts, read 5,118,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
Botticelli is quite the funny character. He blasts how China's system is superior and allowed it to amass great wealth and power. So, why doesn't he move back to what has become the greatest country in the world? This is what happens when you suffer from the communist propaganda machine. He knows China's government is terrible, but he will never admit it for fear of losing face. He will continue to be in denial because, not supporting the political party of his homeland, means giving in to the West, and to *gasp* 中華民國! A good Chinese will never admit the 中華民國 did something right, they are just a backwards, poor, evil runaway province of China. How do I know all of this? My stepfather is a PRC Chinese, and even after living with us for 10 years, he still refuses to accept the CCP is evil, because it made China great. Like botticelli, he has no plans to move back to China anytime soon, of course.
It's quite common among Chinese people tbqh...I've seen a lot. They complain about Chinese authority yet whenever someone else criticize it they'd just get so warmed-up and overly-protective.
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Old 10-10-2014, 09:19 AM
 
2,557 posts, read 2,177,631 times
Reputation: 1810
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
I also speak as someone who had half of his family living in the Eastern Bloc (Soviet Union aligned countries), I am not totally ignorant of the power of communist propaganda. My family's country had a State Security Bureau that functioned similarly to North Korea's. Secret police everywhere
Hey theunbrainwashed - are you referring to the Stasi (Staatssicherheit) in Deutsche Demokratische Republik? I grew up in (West) Berlin and remember going with my parents to Stasi HQ on Ruschestraße in East Berlin after DDR fell - they turned it into an archive/museum. Many DDR residents also flocked the building because they were all justifiably curious about what kind of surveillance records the Stasi has collected on them, and most importantly, who did the spying. I remember there were many instances where the husband or wife suddenly found out that his/her partner actually turned out to be a Stasi informer - a heartbreaking experience for many families in the east.

I'm sure many are aware, but there is an excellent Oscar-winning German film called Das Leben der Anderen (Lives of Others) that so vividly portrayed the activities of the Stasi. Most importantly, it conveyed the kind of over-arching, stifling atmosphere an authoritarian society can have on its citizens' livelihood, and how it can so easily pitch one's friends, neighbors, and family against one another. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others

One of the most unforgettable lines from that film was by this female actress who had to prostitute herself with high officials in order to maintain her job as a top actress: "Don't I need this whole system? What about you? Then you don't need it either, or need it even less. But you get in bed with them, too. Why do you do it? Because they can destroy you too, despite your talent and your faith. Because they decide what we play, who is to act, and who can direct." I think a lot of this still applies in today's China, because the Party is still the ultimate judge on who can do what, who gets to win, who gets to lose.

Last edited by bostonkid123; 10-10-2014 at 09:34 AM..
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Old 10-10-2014, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,773 posts, read 5,118,153 times
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^The Lives of Others is one of my favorite films of all time. I adore that film so much!!!!!
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Old 10-10-2014, 10:14 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,255,922 times
Reputation: 7578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post

The greenest countries on this map are pretty much the richest countries out there.
I know you won't listen to this but one can't say that China would be as poor as India were it a democracy, simply because it has never been tested. Maybe it would, or maybe it would do even better than the US.

And I find this sentence to be extremely sarcastic, since the person that said it is currently living in one of the most democratic countries in the world.
You should know every country is different. You can't apply the same standard to all of them. Can you even start to compare China with those dark green countries, such as Canada, Sweden, Norway? China is a country in its developing stage, with thousands of years of complicated history, a largely uneducated population and the population vastly larger. Do you expect at this stage, everyone should have the ability to vote for leaders? For God's sake, millions of Chinese have never stepped outside their village in their life, have no idea about rights, economy or politics.

China's success lies in the fact that policies have continuity and can be strictly enforced without all the endless multiple party bickering, all caring about nothing but their "votes". Yes, it sounds authoritarian, but if everything needs to be discussed and debated to death, China wouldn't be able to accomplish so much in such a short time, and pulling millions out of poverty.

Canada is highly democratic, yes, but it is highly inefficient. LEt me give you some example. The city of Toronto is seriously lack rapid transit, everyone knows it. The economic cost is multibillion. but we haven't done a thing in the past 20 years. Not a single line has been added, because all these politicians simply keep bickering with each other, canceling each other's plans. Millions have been spent on studies, reviews, consultations and there is zero results. This is the price you pay for democracy. On the other hand, China is building subways, high speed trains at incredible speed. In Shanghai, it takes 3-4 years to build a fully tunnelled subway. In Toronto, the schedule is 10-12 years for a line that is half above ground. For Christs sake, they are building a 100 meter tunnel linking mainland and the Billy Bishop Airport, and it has taken more than 3 years and not finished yet. Do you think China has so much time to build every piece of its infrastructure? If given full democracy, India is exactly what China would end up looking like. You get your "rights", but half the population pee on the streets and the trains take 10 hours to travel 300km.

Brazil is another example. Its growth is something like 1%. Give it to China, that means 300M people will be out of jobs.

Trust me, I didn't come to Canada for its democracy. Its high quality of life comes from a small population with massive resources. If Canada had 1 billion people, it would be as poor as China, democratic or not. Often, I (and many others) just want some authoritarian person to say: shut up, the discussion is over and let's start digging and build some subways. BS time is over.

Even the liberal party Trudeau showed "admiration" toward the effectiveness China's authoritarian system is able to bring. Sometimes democracy gives you rights, sometimes it brings BS. Hitler was democratically elected as well in case you forget.

All the fuss and aura over democracy is misguided. I am not saying China doesn't need political reform, but I am happy that it is finding its own way instead of blindly following the America style in hope of becoming the next America. Truth is, nobody can become another America.
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