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Old 11-06-2014, 08:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
Linguistically speaking, and I'm talking to lepillow too, mutual intelligibility comes from native words, not loanwords.
Yes...isn't that what I said? Loanwords don't count.
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Old 11-06-2014, 10:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
Yes...isn't that what I said? Loanwords don't count.
Oh yeah, you did. I didn't read lepillow's post to get the idea of your post
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Old 11-07-2014, 02:47 AM
 
Location: Taipei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lepillow View Post
Not even close? There certainly are words in Japanese and Chinese that are mutually intelligible (even the pronunciation is similar to some extent). I must agree, though, that the grammar is different and speakers of either language have a (very) hard time deciphering each other in oral conversations. For written conversations, the level of mutual intelligibility increases slightly.

Consider these few examples:

'Everything' in Japanese: 全部 (pronounced 'Ze-n-Bu)
'Everything' in Chinese: 全部 (pronounced Quan-Bu)

‘Fish' in Japanese: 魚 (defected to the traditional Chinese script but perfectly comprehensible)
'Fish' in Chinese: 鱼

'Student' in Japanese: 学生 (different pronunciation from its Chinese counterpart, though)
'Student' in Chinese: 学生

'Car' in Japanese: 車 (again, the traditional Chinese script is in use but comprehensible to any Chinese)
'Car' in Chinese: 车

'Telephone' in Japanese: 電話 (pronounced 'De-n-Wa)
'Telephone' in Chinese: 电话 (pronounced 'Dian-Hua)
There are always a hell lot more faux-amis.

Anyway, about the loanwords, Chinese loans a lot words from Japanese as well, most people are not aware of it.
Such as: 政府(government), 民主(democracy), 科學(science), 經濟(economy), 主義(-ism)...etc. There are about a thousand of them, these words were first translated into Japanese from European languages, then Chinese copied them.
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Old 11-07-2014, 07:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Anyway, about the loanwords, Chinese loans a lot words from Japanese as well, most people are not aware of it.
Such as: 政府(government), 民主(democracy), 科學(science), 經濟(economy), 主義(-ism)...etc. There are about a thousand of them, these words were first translated into Japanese from European languages, then Chinese copied them.
I didn't know that history, very interesting.
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Old 11-07-2014, 08:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
There are always a hell lot more faux-amis.

Anyway, about the loanwords, Chinese loans a lot words from Japanese as well, most people are not aware of it.
Such as: 政府(government), 民主(democracy), 科學(science), 經濟(economy), 主義(-ism)...etc. There are about a thousand of them, these words were first translated into Japanese from European languages, then Chinese copied them.

No, actually it is the other way around. Japanese have borrowed a lot of foreign words through China. China sent scholars to the West first before Japan. After the war with Dutch, Japan lost. They were forced to open some of their ports to Dutch. Meiji government then sent a lot of scholars to West to study. Chinese loaned probably 300 compound words from Japan. Probably 120 compound words of these are pure Japanese e.g. matcha, geisha. The other 180 were borrowed West compound words through Japan e.g. telephone, news.


Actually China has many languages. The standard language people learn in China is Mandarin, but Mandarin is only one of China’s languages. Other languages, for example, Suzhounese has lexically similarity with Mandarin is only 70% just like English to German with many different grammar styles and completely almost different phonetics. They are not mutual intelligent.
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Old 11-07-2014, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Taipei
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^I know that. Japanese borrowed many many words from Chinese, then from the late 1800s to the early 1900s, it was the other way around as Japan was a hell lot more successful in terms of learning from the West.
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Old 11-07-2014, 11:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
[/b]Of course. They are loanwords from Chinese which have entered the Japanese language. There are also many words in Japanese and English which are mutually intelligible, but the languages are not even close!
The case is a little different. It is true that Japanese and Chinese are two distant languages, but the number of Chinese loanwords in Japanese is so big that people do have some level of mutual intelligibility in terms of written language. Even basic terms such as numbers, person, water, and fire have Chinese loanwords in Japanese. This is very different from a usual borrowing case.

The Zhuang language is not related to Chinese at all, but it has tons of loanwords from Chinese too. When I listen to Zhuang news, I can actually catch phrases and even sentences here and there.
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Old 11-07-2014, 11:26 AM
 
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Japanese borrowed thousands of words from Chinese, and Chinese probably also borrowed dozens of words from Japanese. That's why in many cases words sound similar. Japanese still use tons of Chinese characters and in most case they mean the same thing.

however the similarity stops here. The two languages have nothing in common otherwise, let it be grammar, or morphology or syntax.
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Old 11-07-2014, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Singapore
156 posts, read 234,875 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Japanese borrowed thousands of words from Chinese, and Chinese probably also borrowed dozens of words from Japanese. That's why in many cases words sound similar. Japanese still use tons of Chinese characters and in most case they mean the same thing.

however the similarity stops here. The two languages have nothing in common otherwise, let it be grammar, or morphology or syntax.

That's quite a big thing to shrug off nonchalantly and abruptly, I'd say.
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Old 11-08-2014, 12:06 AM
 
Location: Singapore
156 posts, read 234,875 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
There are always a hell lot more faux-amis.

Anyway, about the loanwords, Chinese loans a lot words from Japanese as well, most people are not aware of it.
Such as: 政府(government), 民主(democracy), 科學(science), 經濟(economy), 主義(-ism)...etc. There are about a thousand of them, these words were first translated into Japanese from European languages, then Chinese copied them.
The examples I gave are not 'faux-amis'. They mean exactly as they are in both Chinese and Japanese (with the exception of differences in pronunciation).

By faux-amis, I suppose you're referring to these:
'Run' in Japanese: 走る
'Walk' in Chinese: 走

'Study' in Japanese: 勉強
'Grudgingly' in Chinese: 勉强

And a 'hell lot more' as you rightly indicated.
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