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Old 07-06-2015, 12:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
What you said is exactly true. All of it.
There is a strong belief in China and in fact a significant number of countries around the world that if you are not White and Western, the US will never treat you as an equal. The Chinese usually cite the Plaza Accord and the anti-Japanese sentiment during the 80s as an example of how the US doesn't even treat its non white allies well (I won't even mention Israel and the Arab world). It's why China generally ignores US demands since they don't think the US will ever reciprocate equally and why Chinese citizens are recalcitrant and nationalistic when it comes to US criticism. This belief (that the US only treats White Westerners as equals) is quite old and one of the rationales for the US civil rights movement was to combat this belief since the Soviets exploited it in the Cold War.
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Old 07-06-2015, 01:03 PM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,295,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X14Freak View Post
There is a strong belief in China and in fact a significant number of countries around the world that if you are not White and Western, the US will never treat you as an equal. The Chinese usually cite the Plaza Accord and the anti-Japanese sentiment during the 80s as an example of how the US doesn't even treat its non white allies well (I won't even mention Israel and the Arab world). It's why China generally ignores US demands since they don't think the US will ever reciprocate equally and why Chinese citizens are recalcitrant and nationalistic when it comes to US criticism. This belief (that the US only treats White Westerners as equals) is quite old and one of the rationales for the US civil rights movement was to combat this belief since the Soviets exploited it in the Cold War.
China itself is fully aware and in no illusion that the US will ever treat it as an equal. Even if China fully adopts a democratic political system and improves its so-called human rights dramatically, eliminates all barriers to freedom of speech and the press, the US will still not consider it as equal. There is simply no point of pleasing the US, unless you want to be a minion country.

China gave up that hope a long time ago. What it is trying to do is to be powerful enough economically, and let money talk. And judging by reactions from at least the western midsized power, it is working. It will just take longer for the US to accept that.

And unlike Japan, China won't experience another Plaza Accord and its own lost decade just because its "ally" wasn't pleased with how things were. The difference is that China is too massive to be manipulated like that, and too integrated into the world economy that in hurting China, the US will inevitably hurt itself almost as much.
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Old 07-06-2015, 06:09 PM
 
268 posts, read 325,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greysholic View Post
Yeah keep using the "taxpayers" argument, how valid.

Death penalty is far more expensive than incarceration.
Yes, but incarceration still isn't cheap.

From The Economist -

"No country in the world imprisons as many people as America does, or for so long. Across the array of state and federal prisons, local jails and immigration detention centres, some 2.3m people are locked up at any one time. America, with less than 5% of the world’s population, accounts for around 25% of the world’s prisoners. The system is particularly punishing towards black people and Hispanics, who are imprisoned at six times and twice the rates of whites respectively. A third of young black men can expect to be incarcerated at some point in their lives. The system is riddled with drugs, abuse and violence. Its cost to the American taxpayer is about $34,000 per inmate per year; the total bill is around $80 billion."
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Old 07-07-2015, 01:13 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,783 posts, read 13,383,780 times
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the US has such a huge fetish for punishment and the free market that it has turned punishment into a monetized cultural institution. A friend of my sister's, for example, got caught using a fake handicapped placard on his car - admittedly a douchey thing to do - and is now looking at six months in jail, two years probation, and a $4k fine. The plea bargain offered will still cost him 3 months in jail, but 1 year probation, and $2500 (they will drop the fine for it being counterfeit). Ge will still have a criminal record and probation he needs to disclose to employers indefinitely. I've known guys who got picked up for pot when they were 16 or 17, tried as an adult, convicted of drug possession, put in jail for a year or two, and ten years on, find it hard to get ahold of meaningful employment. I don't define this as justice and fail to see its benefits to society.

Ideologically, it's punishment for the sake of punishment; in america, it's also good business. Judges have been nailed for taking bribes - more like commissions - for throwing the book at minor offenders and locking them away. It is utterly revolting, and I do find hypocrisy when I hear a politician condemning a country like China for its human rights abuses while you have 15 year olds being raped by 30-year old lifers in adult prisons and people unable to feed their families because they got hit with thousand-dollar fines for accidentally blowing a stop sign or going 10mph over on the freeway... or, jailing them because they can't pay it.

Unlike others, I don't attempt to use this to justify one nation's behavior over another - disgusting behavior in the US is disgusting behavior in China or the EU or Africa, an unjust action 100 years ago is one now - and I don't believe any nation is inherently exceptional versus others.
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Old 07-07-2015, 08:05 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,295,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
the US has such a huge fetish for punishment and the free market that it has turned punishment into a monetized cultural institution. A friend of my sister's, for example, got caught using a fake handicapped placard on his car - admittedly a douchey thing to do - and is now looking at six months in jail, two years probation, and a $4k fine. The plea bargain offered will still cost him 3 months in jail, but 1 year probation, and $2500 (they will drop the fine for it being counterfeit). Ge will still have a criminal record and probation he needs to disclose to employers indefinitely. I've known guys who got picked up for pot when they were 16 or 17, tried as an adult, convicted of drug possession, put in jail for a year or two, and ten years on, find it hard to get ahold of meaningful employment. I don't define this as justice and fail to see its benefits to society.
What you mentioned is a perfect example of how corporal punishment such as a good whipping will be far more effective. It causes sufficient pain for the person to hesitate to do that again, but doesn't lead to a debauched life because of what he did before
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Old 07-07-2015, 09:33 AM
AFP
 
6,898 posts, read 4,258,849 times
Reputation: 5879
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k;40310355[B
]the US has such a huge fetish for punishment and the free market that it has turned punishment into a monetized cultural institution.[/b] A friend of my sister's, for example, got caught using a fake handicapped placard on his car - admittedly a douchey thing to do - and is now looking at six months in jail, two years probation, and a $4k fine. The plea bargain offered will still cost him 3 months in jail, but 1 year probation, and $2500 (they will drop the fine for it being counterfeit). Ge will still have a criminal record and probation he needs to disclose to employers indefinitely. I've known guys who got picked up for pot when they were 16 or 17, tried as an adult, convicted of drug possession, put in jail for a year or two, and ten years on, find it hard to get ahold of meaningful employment. I don't define this as justice and fail to see its benefits to society.

Ideologically, it's punishment for the sake of punishment; in america, it's also good business. Judges have been nailed for taking bribes - more like commissions - for throwing the book at minor offenders and locking them away. It is utterly revolting, and I do find hypocrisy when I hear a politician condemning a country like China for its human rights abuses while you have 15 year olds being raped by 30-year old lifers in adult prisons and people unable to feed their families because they got hit with thousand-dollar fines for accidentally blowing a stop sign or going 10mph over on the freeway... or, jailing them because they can't pay it.

Unlike others, I don't attempt to use this to justify one nation's behavior over another - disgusting behavior in the US is disgusting behavior in China or the EU or Africa, an unjust action 100 years ago is one now - and I don't believe any nation is inherently exceptional versus others.
The entire thing is a failure just based on the recidivism rates punishment doesn't work the figures don't support it. We will look back in a few years and see that it was a failed social experiment. I work in the system prison system it is a university for criminality the way it is currently structured. The code of ethics followed behind bars is completely different no mercy is shown to the weak. There is a lot of money to be made and millions of jobs at stake I don't see it turning around any time soon.

Recidivism | National Institute of Justice
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Old 07-07-2015, 09:39 AM
AFP
 
6,898 posts, read 4,258,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
What you mentioned is a perfect example of how corporal punishment such as a good whipping will be far more effective. It causes sufficient pain for the person to hesitate to do that again, but doesn't lead to a debauched life because of what he did before
Whipping will never be implemented in the USA you can keep talking about it all you want I can assure you people's heads would roll in positions of power if it came down to imposing a whipping policy on US citizens.
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Old 07-07-2015, 10:50 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,295,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
Whipping will never be implemented in the USA you can keep talking about it all you want I can assure you people's heads would roll in positions of power if it came down to imposing a whipping policy on US citizens.
I agree, let Americans pay for the expensive incarceration and the lives of the degenerates since they like it. I have no objection.
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:46 PM
 
1,379 posts, read 1,818,487 times
Reputation: 980
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
China itself is fully aware and in no illusion that the US will ever treat it as an equal. Even if China fully adopts a democratic political system and improves its so-called human rights dramatically, eliminates all barriers to freedom of speech and the press, the US will still not consider it as equal. There is simply no point of pleasing the US, unless you want to be a minion country.

China gave up that hope a long time ago. What it is trying to do is to be powerful enough economically, and let money talk. And judging by reactions from at least the western midsized power, it is working. It will just take longer for the US to accept that.

And unlike Japan, China won't experience another Plaza Accord and its own lost decade just because its "ally" wasn't pleased with how things were. The difference is that China is too massive to be manipulated like that, and too integrated into the world economy that in hurting China, the US will inevitably hurt itself almost as much.
Chinese people also think Westerners have a very negative view of them (they aren't wrong) so it makes China even less willing to compromise since Chinese citizens would react very negatively if the CCP ever accepted a demand from the US. If the CCP ever caved into a demand from the US, the government would suffer a humongous loss of face and legitimacy.

Free speech unfortunately does have unintended consequences. Racist comments and racist media portrayals can come back to bite you in the future and unfortunately for the US and the rest of the world with free speech, citizens who make racist remarks (like that preacher who burned the Koran) can lead to severe repercussions in diplomacy.
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Old 07-07-2015, 05:14 PM
AFP
 
6,898 posts, read 4,258,849 times
Reputation: 5879
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
I agree, let Americans pay for the expensive incarceration and the lives of the degenerates since they like it. I have no objection.
They don't like it there are just so many loopholes in the legal system that allows skilled attorneys to file and win lawsuits on behalf of the lowlife convicts there is so much money to be made suing the government because the government at the state level will often hire attorneys that are less skilled and is quick to settle lawsuits.

What makes you think that if corporal punishment was regularly implemented in homes, schools and the courts as punishment for crimes in the USA it would result in less crime and incarceration. There is a sub-culture of criminals in the USA that pass on their legacy from generation to generation crime is as normal to these people as eating or breathing is to you and I.
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