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Old 07-09-2015, 01:20 AM
 
22 posts, read 8,513 times
Reputation: 16

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I heard that the Chinese Government was Harvesting Organs from live Falun Gong practitioners, so I looked it up online.

Ethan Gutmann, a journalist and adjunct fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, in his investigations estimated that 65,000 unwilling Falun Gong practitioners were killed for their organs between 2000 to 2008.

In 2006 three claims of organ harvesting from thousands of practitioners at Suijatun Thrombosis Hospital led to the David Kilgour and David Matas report. They found that "the source of 41,500 transplants for the six year period 2000 to 2005 is unexplained" and concluded that "there has been and continues today to be large scale organ seizure from unwilling Falun Gong practitioners." David Kilguor is a former Canadian secretary of state, and David Matas is a human rights lawyer.

U.S. House of Representatives Initiates Resolution 343 Condemning State-Sanctioned Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong in China


Falun Gong is a Qigong practice with spiritual beliefs. and its core belief tenets are based on truthfulness, compassion, and Tolerance. There are five exercises and you can read its teaching online.

Take a Look at these videos.

Its a major human rights abuse, Did you guys know about this?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvAOOwvJMZs



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkf2...ature=youtu.be



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ-A6xY47jc
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Old 07-09-2015, 02:03 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,363,470 times
Reputation: 11309
I seriously doubt that the Chinese government is specifically rounding up and killing these people for their organs. They will indeed harvest organs from executed prisoners, or prisoners who die in captivity, and it must be said that you can be executed for many more things in China than you can be in the US, but even with that said, these things get played up a lot by Western activists. Because the Chinese government and judicial system is much more sealed-off than Western or other Asian governments, it controls the media, etc., it is easier to make claims like these.

I remember talking to a younger Tibetan woman who was a coworker and grew up in Tibet who still didn't really like the PRC and was sympathetic to Tibetan autonomy, but also said that she was shocked by the claims of the Tibetan community in the US when she moved there. She said that she'd never known anyone who had been detained and tortured, that she'd never felt singled-out or mistreated by the government, and that she'd butted heads with ethnic Tibetans who grew up in India or the West and never been there who insisted that there were roving government death squads murdering thousands of people and that monks were all rounded up and tortured. All told, Tibetan separatists aren't treated much different from vocally pro-democracy Han.

As I've heard from her and other younger, more recently-emigrated or foreign-born Tibetans, many people know that the stories are hyperbolic and that what happened fifty years ago and what happens now is way different, but it's part of the narrative that allowed many Tibetans immigrants to obtain refugee status and citizenship for themselves and their families abroad. It's a narrative that many Western celebrities and governments picked up, the former as do-gooders and the latter as opportunists (any government is happy to deflect its wrongs by highlighting the wrongs of another nation), and it's allowed for a fairly unique and special opportunity for many Tibetans abroad who wish to emigrate. It's somewhat similar with Falun Gong practitioners who manage to emigrate - they may have never actually faced any targeting or discrimination whatsoever because they practiced quietly at home, but if they can prove membership then they have an extra spade when it comes to immigration. To keep up the benefits, it behooves them to stay vocal about it when they have moved. Saying "I got questioned by the police once and they let me go home, it sucked and was humiliating but I guess it could have been worse" is a lot less impactful than "I was hauled off by the police and tortured for weeks, made to renounce my faith while I had jumper cables attached to my nipples, and watched them murder dozens of my friends in a field."

I don't disagree that these people have been targeted, I just have a very hard time believing that forty thousand of them have been euthanized and gutted for the organ market.

Organ harvesting is, however, a pretty legit issue here and does happen. Children are frequently abducted and sold off to childless families (boys) or into sexual slavery (girls), but it also happens that healthy children are killed for their organs as there are plenty of people willing to pay tons of money to get a transplant for their child ASAP. Adults, especially women, are also targeted for it. I have been warned by a few Chinese acquaintances that I should be careful when alone in poorer provinces, because foreigners' organs are more valuable as people believe they are healthier in general. I don't heed much warning to it, but it's something that you'll almost never hear in the West.
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Old 07-09-2015, 07:35 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,270,768 times
Reputation: 7586
It is such a stupid accusation.

"65,000 unwilling Falun Gong practitioners were killed for their organs between 2000 to 2008" - estimate based on what? Why not 150,000? That sounds more sensational.

Honestly, I think what the CCP did to Falun Gong was insane and out of bounds, but to accuse the Chinese government of organ harvesting is nothing but typical western anti-China propaganda - I saw those people with flags and banners full of lies in Chinatown Toronto all the time, sponsored by no one but the United States. And typical compassionate and unsuspecting Canadians easily fall for that. This is how the machine works.

Foundation for Defense of Democracies has little credibility. For example its reports always harshly criticize the Arabs and are known to keep a blind eye to whatever terrorist action done by Israel, because the organization is largely funded by American Jews. Do we honestly think it can form an impartial view on China issues?

"Falun Gong is a Qigong practice with spiritual beliefs." - sounds sweet. Did you know that Master Li asks his followers not to see the doctor or take any meds when sick? Apparently the training in breathing will solve everything.

Falun Gong, no matter how it started, unfortunately becomes a tool for governments and organizations with huge anti-China agenda (just like Dalai Lama). The former gets the generous funding and the latter gets a useful outlet of propaganda. You know what, to criticize the far from perfect CCP is completely reasonable, but to make outright lies just to smear the enemy's image is downright pathetic.
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Old 07-09-2015, 07:52 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,270,768 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
I seriously doubt that the Chinese government is specifically rounding up and killing these people for their organs. They will indeed harvest organs from executed prisoners, or prisoners who die in captivity, and it must be said that you can be executed for many more things in China than you can be in the US, but even with that said, these things get played up a lot by Western activists. Because the Chinese government and judicial system is much more sealed-off than Western or other Asian governments, it controls the media, etc., it is easier to make claims like these.

I remember talking to a younger Tibetan woman who was a coworker and grew up in Tibet who still didn't really like the PRC and was sympathetic to Tibetan autonomy, but also said that she was shocked by the claims of the Tibetan community in the US when she moved there. She said that she'd never known anyone who had been detained and tortured, that she'd never felt singled-out or mistreated by the government, and that she'd butted heads with ethnic Tibetans who grew up in India or the West and never been there who insisted that there were roving government death squads murdering thousands of people and that monks were all rounded up and tortured. All told, Tibetan separatists aren't treated much different from vocally pro-democracy Han.
Thanks God someone has some senses and knows how to tell truth from lies.

I am very sympathetic towards those westerns who were constantly fed with China hating lies. They grew up reading those and become so convinced that these are all true (Tibet, Falun Gong etc) that it is impossible to tell them otherwise.

Do you guys even know the privileges the Tibetans enjoy over the Hans?

If a Tibetan steals something in Beijing and gets caught, the police will most likely not to anything and let him go - because it is a sensitive issue and nobody dares do something to cause that trouble.

In the college matriculation exams, the Tibetans only need to score a much lower score than Hans to get into a top university. For example, in 2014, to get into the law school of Peking University, a Tibetan student only needs to score 526, versus 680 in Beijing, 665 in Guangdong, 667 in Hubei, 692 in Shandong and 752 in Zhejiang. In addition, they pay subsidized tuition and fees.

The one child policy applies to the Hans, but not to Tibetans.

Starting 2015, Tibetans who go to military services will receive a one time payment of 50000 Yuan ($8000), and 10000 Yuan ($1600) for every incremental year up to a maximum of $23,000.

The list can go on and go, believe it or not, yet outsiders still think the Tibetans are mistreated, detained and tortured on a regular basis.
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Old 07-09-2015, 01:06 PM
 
1,424 posts, read 736,143 times
Reputation: 508
Fa Lun Gong is known to be fabricating ridiculous stories. They often claim some people die or get sick because they offended Fa Lun Gong.
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Old 07-09-2015, 05:51 PM
 
4,692 posts, read 3,618,305 times
Reputation: 7386
Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Fa Lun Gong is known to be fabricating ridiculous stories. They often claim some people die or get sick because they offended Fa Lun Gong.
Falun zombies and their stupidity are always on public display. I saw them out marching on the streets of Chinatown in NYC when I was visiting some friends there shortly after the 2008 earthquake in Sichuan...they were all claiming that the earthquake was due to heaven striking and punishing the CCP! They were just as idiotic as Sharon Stone who claimed that the earthquake was God's punishment for China's mistreatment of the Tibetans....yet many of the quake victims were ethnic Tibetans.
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Old 07-10-2015, 01:08 AM
 
22 posts, read 8,513 times
Reputation: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
I seriously doubt that the Chinese government is specifically rounding up and killing these people for their organs. They will indeed harvest organs from executed prisoners, or prisoners who die in captivity, and it must be said that you can be executed for many more things in China than you can be in the US, but even with that said, these things get played up a lot by Western activists. Because the Chinese government and judicial system is much more sealed-off than Western or other Asian governments, it controls the media, etc., it is easier to make claims like these.

I remember talking to a younger Tibetan woman who was a coworker and grew up in Tibet who still didn't really like the PRC and was sympathetic to Tibetan autonomy, but also said that she was shocked by the claims of the Tibetan community in the US when she moved there. She said that she'd never known anyone who had been detained and tortured, that she'd never felt singled-out or mistreated by the government, and that she'd butted heads with ethnic Tibetans who grew up in India or the West and never been there who insisted that there were roving government death squads murdering thousands of people and that monks were all rounded up and tortured. All told, Tibetan separatists aren't treated much different from vocally pro-democracy Han.

As I've heard from her and other younger, more recently-emigrated or foreign-born Tibetans, many people know that the stories are hyperbolic and that what happened fifty years ago and what happens now is way different, but it's part of the narrative that allowed many Tibetans immigrants to obtain refugee status and citizenship for themselves and their families abroad. It's a narrative that many Western celebrities and governments picked up, the former as do-gooders and the latter as opportunists (any government is happy to deflect its wrongs by highlighting the wrongs of another nation), and it's allowed for a fairly unique and special opportunity for many Tibetans abroad who wish to emigrate. It's somewhat similar with Falun Gong practitioners who manage to emigrate - they may have never actually faced any targeting or discrimination whatsoever because they practiced quietly at home, but if they can prove membership then they have an extra spade when it comes to immigration. To keep up the benefits, it behooves them to stay vocal about it when they have moved. Saying "I got questioned by the police once and they let me go home, it sucked and was humiliating but I guess it could have been worse" is a lot less impactful than "I was hauled off by the police and tortured for weeks, made to renounce my faith while I had jumper cables attached to my nipples, and watched them murder dozens of my friends in a field."

I don't disagree that these people have been targeted, I just have a very hard time believing that forty thousand of them have been euthanized and gutted for the organ market.

Organ harvesting is, however, a pretty legit issue here and does happen. Children are frequently abducted and sold off to childless families (boys) or into sexual slavery (girls), but it also happens that healthy children are killed for their organs as there are plenty of people willing to pay tons of money to get a transplant for their child ASAP. Adults, especially women, are also targeted for it. I have been warned by a few Chinese acquaintances that I should be careful when alone in poorer provinces, because foreigners' organs are more valuable as people believe they are healthier in general. I don't heed much warning to it, but it's something that you'll almost never hear in the West.

I've heard of Falun Gong practitioners being emigrated to the United States and Canada too. I think they are allowed to do that because Falun Gong is persecuted by the Chinese government. And there are human rights abuses such as torture of Falun Gong practitioners. I also read they are sent to labor camps too. They continue to be vocal about it because one way to end the persecution of Falun Gong is to raise awareness. At the same time it will make them persecuted less wildly when more people know about it. 40,000 is a pretty big number to believe, I remember seeing a photograph of one person they showed on a website which showed long stitches around the torso suppose to indicate that his organs were removed. One of the reasons i believe that they have harvested organ is because on a telephone transcription to a hospital in China, an investigator posed as transplant patient looking for organs asked if there were any available, the doctor replied that he could get them in a couple weeks - when waiting list can take up to years. when asked For organs of Falun Gong practitioners, he said that he had this kind and they are healthy. The report is on this website An Independent Investigation into Allegations of Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong Practitioners in China ??????????????????????, just go to the Transcript of Telephone Investigations section.

Here is one;


(1) Mishan City Detention Centre, Heilongjiang province (8 June 2006):



M: Do you have Falun Gong [organ] suppliers? ...



Mr. Li: We used to have, yes.



M: what about now?



Mr. Li: Yes.







M: Can we come to select, or you provide directly to us?



Mr. Li: We provide them to you.



M: What about the price?



Mr. Li: We discuss after you come.







M: How many [Falun Gong suppliers] under age 40 do you have?



Mr. Li: Quite a few.





M: Are they male or female?



Mr. Li: Male







M: Now, for the male Falun Gong [prisoners], how many of them do you have?



Mr. Li: Seven, eight, we have [at least] five, six now.



M: Are they from countryside or from the city?



Mr. Li: Countryside.
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Old 07-10-2015, 01:09 AM
 
22 posts, read 8,513 times
Reputation: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
It is such a stupid accusation.

"65,000 unwilling Falun Gong practitioners were killed for their organs between 2000 to 2008" - estimate based on what? Why not 150,000? That sounds more sensational.

Honestly, I think what the CCP did to Falun Gong was insane and out of bounds, but to accuse the Chinese government of organ harvesting is nothing but typical western anti-China propaganda - I saw those people with flags and banners full of lies in Chinatown Toronto all the time, sponsored by no one but the United States. And typical compassionate and unsuspecting Canadians easily fall for that. This is how the machine works.

Foundation for Defense of Democracies has little credibility. For example its reports always harshly criticize the Arabs and are known to keep a blind eye to whatever terrorist action done by Israel, because the organization is largely funded by American Jews. Do we honestly think it can form an impartial view on China issues?

"Falun Gong is a Qigong practice with spiritual beliefs." - sounds sweet. Did you know that Master Li asks his followers not to see the doctor or take any meds when sick? Apparently the training in breathing will solve everything.

Falun Gong, no matter how it started, unfortunately becomes a tool for governments and organizations with huge anti-China agenda (just like Dalai Lama). The former gets the generous funding and the latter gets a useful outlet of propaganda. You know what, to criticize the far from perfect CCP is completely reasonable, but to make outright lies just to smear the enemy's image is downright pathetic.
How do you know Falun Gong is funded? I know that their internet firewall breaking software Global-consortium was it? was funded by US government. I think that's one thing.

I have never really seen it as Anti-China propaganda as every country has their vices, maybe not as bad. China has over 5000 years of history and art. Ancient Chinese medicine and folk medicine is suppose to be pretty advanced. China is a great country, I just think it can do with out the Communist part.

I know a Falun Gong practitioner that takes medicine for Schizophrenia.
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Old 07-10-2015, 10:02 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,270,768 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by IluvPikachu View Post
How do you know Falun Gong is funded? I know that their internet firewall breaking software Global-consortium was it? was funded by US government. I think that's one thing.

I have never really seen it as Anti-China propaganda as every country has their vices, maybe not as bad. China has over 5000 years of history and art. Ancient Chinese medicine and folk medicine is suppose to be pretty advanced. China is a great country, I just think it can do with out the Communist part.

I know a Falun Gong practitioner that takes medicine for Schizophrenia.
I just hope everyone would read these kind of reports with a grain of salt, instead of choosing to believe what you want to believe, just because you dislike China.

Chinese traditional medicine is largely BS at least for the modern times. For some reasons many people still believe in that. Yes, they had their uses 500 years ago, but times have changed and they are obsolete.

I don't like the CCP either, but I don't think right now there is a better alternative. You have to think about the Chinese people. Just because CCP is corrupted doesn't make removing it is better for the country.

Also: present day China is far from being anything communist. It is as capitalist as it gets economically. It is still authoritarian, but IMO it serves the country well for now. China is not ready for democracy if you have the slightest idea of the general population. They are simply not ready to be voters. It will be catastrophe if they get to decide major matters today.
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