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Old 08-19-2015, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Manhattan, NYC
901 posts, read 631,891 times
Reputation: 834

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
I'd be interested in exactly the what the changes entail. What content does it change, what content stays the same. To my knowledge, the new screenings in Japanese textbooks only applied to a small percentage of distributed textbooks in Japanese public schools, and that the revised textbooks did not change or take out previous historical content, but simply added notes that lay out the current Japanese government's position on certain issues.

Of course, I don't condone any kind of external revision or suppression of history. Historical information should be accessible to all, and that you can have opposing views to what happened. That is fine as long as people are given freedom of access to all historical content so people can make their own decisions.

I just find it rather comical that a bunch of Chinese government sympathizers are attacking Japan's history education, when China's own Communist Party has been sprouting intense nationalist fervor to citizens for decades. Yes, whenever there's an internal problem in China, always turn public opinion towards the Japanese. You can always score political brownie points by villifying the Japanese.
You meant that you do condemn any kind of external revision or suppression of History, right?

You can find the Chinese and Korean reactions comical, but at best, it's simply ironical. However, what Japan is doing by denying and minimizing the implication or the existence of some of the topics specified in those 2 links is wrong.

And there are still those territorial disputes where Japan does not want to recognize that they do not own them.

Altogether, it starts being a deliberate attempt to brain wash the future generations of the country into what they could believe as being true, just because they do not realize what happened. I find that disappointing, but as others pointed out, most Japanese people probably understand the war was wrong. It's just shameful that the nationalistic party does not want to admit that publicly. And is somehow reflecting that image to the whole population.

 
Old 08-19-2015, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,103,373 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
It's a big cultural misunderstanding, or difference, depending on how you look at it. The West doesn't engage in filial piety, and so many people believe that since Westerners don't do exactly what their parents or grandparents say they should do, they are being disrespectful and/or don't love their family. In china, you show love for your family by obedience; for westerners, you show love for family by loving them and being there for them no matter what you have chosen to do with your life. The societies are structured around these practices, so everything falls into place and it generally works.

A personal anecdote: a few months ago, my fiance got really bugged that every couple days, I would communicate with my family and friends living in the US and Sweden for maybe a half an hour or hour via email or facebook. "Honyeeee, that's wasted time you could use to do something important! We should always be working!" A few days later, she made a comment on Americans not being as connected to their family as Chinese, and I reminded her that the other day, she asked me to be less connected to my family for the sake of looking more busy.
Yes.

I am, even now, taken back when one of my Chinese/Taiwanese friends or colleagues comments with surprise that I too, although a "western person", care about and look after my parents and family.

I find Chinese/Taiwanese comments and belief that Western people do not take care of their families/parents odd, especially given the fact that so very many Taiwanese people simply hire Indonesian or Vietnamese women to push their wheelchair-bound elderly parents around Taipei and bathe them and cook for them. These Chinese/Taiwanese themselves have no time to actually spend caring for their own parents, yet, they have the audacity to believe that Western people are cold and uncaring wrt their parents.

You're right absolutely re filial piety. I don't know how many times I have explained that while we in the West do not see the logic in blind-obedience filial piety, we do have the Judeo-Christian concept of honoring our parents.

Moreover, the way my Western parents want to be cared for differs greatly from the way that my Chinese MIL wants to be doted over. My Mother is independent and proud of her ability to take care of herself. That doesn't mean that my siblings and I do not help her with many things. But, we respect her dignity and allow her to do what she wants on her own. I respect my Chinese MIL, too. But, with my Chinese MIL, I need to show that respect in a different way. I need to dote on her and help her do things that she is perfectly able to do on her own, and my wife and I need to at least pretend to obey her every wish/command.

I think it funny that so many Chinese people do not recognize the cultural difference and instead jump right to the conclusion that Western people are cold and uncaring to their elderly simply because we do not use the same cultural standard, i.e., filial piety, to guide our relations with our parents.
 
Old 08-19-2015, 11:09 PM
 
956 posts, read 1,547,698 times
Reputation: 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123 View Post
Lmao. Call it however you like. Western kool-aid. Southern kool-aid. Klingon kool-aid for all I care.

Can't provide a coherent and rational rebuttal, therefore resorts to common stereotypes. Typical.
I wouldn't worry about Pennyone at all. Just a random troll struggling through his phase 2 adolescence
 
Old 08-20-2015, 12:15 AM
 
1,424 posts, read 736,143 times
Reputation: 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
It's a big cultural misunderstanding, or difference, depending on how you look at it. The West doesn't engage in filial piety, and so many people believe that since Westerners don't do exactly what their parents or grandparents say they should do, they are being disrespectful and/or don't love their family. In china, you show love for your family by obedience; for westerners, you show love for family by loving them and being there for them no matter what you have chosen to do with your life. The societies are structured around these practices, so everything falls into place and it generally works.

A personal anecdote: a few months ago, my fiance got really bugged that every couple days, I would communicate with my family and friends living in the US and Sweden for maybe a half an hour or hour via email or facebook. "Honyeeee, that's wasted time you could use to do something important! We should always be working!" A few days later, she made a comment on Americans not being as connected to their family as Chinese, and I reminded her that the other day, she asked me to be less connected to my family for the sake of looking more busy.
I see your point, but the difference still exists. Westerners certainly love their parents too, but parents have a lower priority in their family life.

If you make your own choices no matter what your parents think, that actually means your parents' feeling is not important to you, no matter how you sugarcoat it. Love entails being willing to sacrifice. Of course it goes both ways. Anyway, most Chinese girls I know said they won't marry a man if their parents oppose it. In Western countries the stats may be different.

BTW my parents can often get a seat in a crowded bus in China. Young people will immediately give their seat. However in America it is less often. Even college students will sit still.
 
Old 08-20-2015, 12:37 AM
 
Location: Asia
2,761 posts, read 1,103,373 times
Reputation: 2989
Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
I see your point, but the difference still exists. Westerners certainly love their parents too, but parents have a lower priority in their family life.
Um. No. You're not reading carefully.

Western parents are Westen people. Western people are typically more independent than are Chinese people.

My parents valued and took pride in their independence late into life (my Mother is still with us). My Grandmothers both were stubbornly independent and refused to live with my parents. My Father was able to convince my his Mother to move to an apartment close to us so that we could help her out and share meals together. My Mother's Mother gave up on life and lost her will to live because after double foot amputations due to diabetes, she could not stand living with my Aunt and being dependent upon others.

Of course we love our parents and our parents are a priority in our lives. I think of my Mother daily and call her often and travel back to the US to visit her often (I will make my 4th trip this year later this month). My brother lives with my Mother and helps her out.

Statements like yours above domonstrate a complete ignorance of western culture in this regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
If you make your own choices no matter what your parents think, that actually means your parents' feeling is not important to you, no matter how you sugarcoat it. Love entails being willing to sacrifice. Of course it goes both ways. Anyway, most Chinese girls I know said they won't marry a man if their parents oppose it. In Western countries the stats may be different.
Wow. Again, Western parents raise their children to be INDEPENDENT. My parents do not demand or even desire that I or my siblings be totally obedient to my parents. Thus, making our own decisions is not indicative of any lack of respect or care for our parents' feelings, and it is not sugar-coating to say so.

I wonder, how loving are Taiwanese adult children who schlep their parents off to strangers (Indonesians and Vietnamese care-givers) so that they themselves needn't be bothered? Oh, sure, they get to say that they didn't send their parents off to a nursing home (which actually are gaining in popularity in Taiwan). I am often sick to my heart when I pass a couple of Indonesian/Vietnamese care-givers sitting around chatting with their elderly Taiwanese charges sitting in wheelchairs dazing off into space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
BTW my parents can often get a seat in a crowded bus in China. Young people will immediately give their seat. However in America it is less often. Even college students will sit still.
If you say so... Taiwanese youth have been famous for pretending to sleep so as to have an "excuse" for not noticing the elderly standing. Its getting much better, now. But, that is only due to the public service messages broadcast frequently in recent years. I've seen plenty of young Chinese (in China, of course) fail to give up a seat to an elderly/pregnant/disables persons, too.

I guess you only notice poor behavior by whites?
 
Old 08-20-2015, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,363,470 times
Reputation: 11309
Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
I see your point, but the difference still exists. Westerners certainly love their parents too, but parents have a lower priority in their family life.

If you make your own choices no matter what your parents think, that actually means your parents' feeling is not important to you, no matter how you sugarcoat it. Love entails being willing to sacrifice. Of course it goes both ways. Anyway, most Chinese girls I know said they won't marry a man if their parents oppose it. In Western countries the stats may be different.
This is one of the big misunderstandings, though. Our parents' opinions do matter, and if we are in disagreement, it often leads to lots and lots and lots of soul-searching, and usually lots of very deep conversations with our parents. These conversations often result in our parents deciding and saying, "it may not be the decision that I would make for you, but I understand that you must make the right decision for yourself," or something to that effect; a family here them proves their love by supporting their child through this decision. Many Westerners, even after coming to an agreement with their parents and getting positive results from their choice, will remember the instance for the rest of their life.

Quote:
BTW my parents can often get a seat in a crowded bus in China. Young people will immediately give their seat. However in America it is less often. Even college students will sit still.
You aren't the first Chinese person I've seen say this, and it always strikes me as funny, because every time I get on the metro or a bus, I am always saddened by the fact that you will see an able-bodied teenage or early-20's guy sitting there while a woman in her 70's is standing. If anyone gets up for her, it's usually another, slightly-younger old person. Foreigners in China are usually quite shocked by it, and you will almost never see a foreigner sitting down on a busy train, because most of us have been socialized to not sit down unless all the old, disabled, or pregnant on the carriage are sitting down. It starts when we are little kids and told that we should get up for old ladies; in China, little kids generally get priority to sit, even though they'd rather be standing and moving around.

It's a literal 100% polar reversal of reality.

I remember reading a discussion on this phenomenon ("in China, people will always rush to the aid of someone who has fallen and hurt themselves - in the US/UK/EU, they just walk by like nothing happened!" <--- in the face of the thousands of viral stories, videos, and other well-known and documented instances of gravely-injured people in China being ignored by passersby), and I've heard that it's attributed, most often subconsciously, to Chinese people wanting to "save face" with the rest of the world. Some Chinese people in China, talking to other Chinese people, will lament this to one another as an example of China's social growing pains, but they will rarely voice this opinion publicly to foreigners.

People just get very caught up in the "it's not my problem, I shouldn't get involved, it will create more drama for me" attitude. It's the same as the situation with ambulances here. Last night, my fiance and I were walking back from dinner and an ambulance came by in traffic. It took about two minutes to get about 200 meters through the intersection, because only maybe one car out of every 10 made an effort to get out of its way. In the West, this is almost unthinkable, even in heavy traffic areas like LA or NY.

Last edited by 415_s2k; 08-20-2015 at 12:59 AM..
 
Old 08-20-2015, 04:46 AM
 
919 posts, read 603,473 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmonburgher View Post
We're not all the same in the way we critique our own histories. The US is far more self-critical than are either China or Japan.
For what reason did the US attack Vietnam? For a made up reason.

For what reason did the US attack Iraq? For a made up reason.

Self-critical? The US? You must be kidding!
 
Old 08-20-2015, 04:58 AM
 
919 posts, read 603,473 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Japan did some great things in Taiwan, such as improved education and healthcare, and didn't exactly mass murder thousands if not millions of innocent lives. It is quite different for China and Korea.
One of my teachers in Taiwan was from east-north, China, who spoke Japanese pretty well. He likes Japan a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Outside Asia no one cares about Japan's apologies?
Well, only China and Korea care about that. Asia is much bigger than China and Korea combined.
 
Old 08-20-2015, 05:10 AM
 
919 posts, read 603,473 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Precisely. The US has basically given japan a pass, and because of both China and Korea's internal problems, they were unable to get their act together to force the japanese to face history correctly. Now it's too late; the japanese think that they are a normal country and have no responsibility to history. What China should do is to build up its military and reserve the right to erase japan if the situation warrants.
How many people has the US killed outside of its territories after WWII?

How many people has Japan killed outside of its territories after WWII?

Let's face it
 
Old 08-20-2015, 05:13 AM
 
919 posts, read 603,473 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Chinese people believe "son should pay father's debt".
So when will China apologize to Japan for what Yuan did to Japan?
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