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Old 08-15-2015, 09:48 PM
 
919 posts, read 602,586 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Of course, Abe has absolutely no intention of apologizing to China. Why should he? China is about to take his little islands with some feral goats on it away from him.....

China is stupid to even care about a two face apology that means absolutely nothing.
This is an interesting discussion among Chinese people. Many of them think no need to apologize to Vietnam

 
Old 08-16-2015, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,353,482 times
Reputation: 11309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanagisawa View Post
This is an interesting discussion among Chinese people. Many of them think no need to apologize to Vietnam
Most nations, cultures, and individuals for that matter are more or less the same, in that they view their own actions sympathetically and lay down heavy criticism on those of others. On the one hand, China will pull quite the victim card from its past conquests and the injustices committed on it by Europeans, the Japanese, etc, but on the other, it declines to do so towards anyone it did that to.

You see the same with most other nations. Japan and Germany are actually fairly stand-out in that they actually have apologized quite a bit for their actions during and prior to WW2... and despite (utterly asinine) beliefs to the contrary, Japan *has* apologized and done quite a bit of contrition for what happened 70/80 years ago.

China just uses the Japan issue to stoke nationalism among its stupider or more immature citizens; it's cooperated with Japan plenty in the interceding years. It expresses outrage over the shrine (which I do agree is repugnant), but then it still has large tombs, schools, government offices, streets, etc named after politicians who were involved in purges against its own people, so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone
Of course, Abe has absolutely no intention of apologizing to China. Why should he? China is about to take his little islands with some feral goats on it away from him.....

China is stupid to even care about a two face apology that means absolutely nothing.
I know you'd be tickled pink to see China take the islands by force but that isn't happening any time soon; too much potential trade loss for that to happen... and China doesn't really, actually care. Again, they've cooperated with Japan a-plenty for decades, this is just a bunch of bone-headed nationalism re-ignited in recent years, particularly before Xi came to office, to distract people from their frustrations with their government.

In regards to force, I do worry that China will become more belligerent in the next 15-20 years as the gender gap hits full swing and you have many millions of lonely, hopeless young men, many of whom will turn to nationalism for a sense of greater purpose in the absence of a personal family life. This has happened with other nations in the past when there's a glut of young men and a shortage of women. It wouldn't be good for anyone in the world...
 
Old 08-16-2015, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Jersey
2,296 posts, read 3,396,524 times
Reputation: 2031
Another apology would have amounted to nothing. Despite Japan's numerous wrongdoings before and during WWII, no amount of apology will ever be good enough for the PRC. Absolute capitulation would not be good enough for the PRC; Abe could pull down his pants and bend over before Xi, and that still wouldn't be good enough. Any nation that is recalcitrant in its own wrongdoings and holds itself sinless is not worth apologizing to. The PRC's foreign policy and attitude towards its neighbors can be summed up as cold and calculating, and Abe gave a fairly calculating and lukewarm "apology"; so cry me a F-ing river.

Last edited by TylerJAX; 08-16-2015 at 05:05 PM..
 
Old 08-16-2015, 05:05 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,501,804 times
Reputation: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerJAX View Post
Another apology would have amounted to nothing. Despite Japan's numerous wrongdoings before and during WWII, no amount of apology will ever be good enough for the PRC. Absolute capitulation would not be good enough for the PRC; Abe could pull down his pants and bend over before Xi, and that still wouldn't be good enough. Any nation that is recalcitrant in its own wrongdoings and holds itself sinless is not worth apologizing to. The PRC's foreign policy and attitude towards its neighbors towards its neighbors can be summed up as cold and calculating, and Abe gave a fairly calculating and lukewarm "apology"; so cry me a F-ing river.
Yangtze, Huangpu?
 
Old 08-16-2015, 10:13 PM
 
919 posts, read 602,586 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
Most nations, cultures, and individuals for that matter are more or less the same, in that they view their own actions sympathetically and lay down heavy criticism on those of others. On the one hand, China will pull quite the victim card from its past conquests and the injustices committed on it by Europeans, the Japanese, etc, but on the other, it declines to do so towards anyone it did that to.
I can't agree more! The comments below are typical ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Yuan is a Chinese dynasty, no problem. But the ruler of that time was not a Chinese, and didn't follow Chinese tradition in many ways. The Mongols were famous invaders.
Yuan did something bad = Since the rulers were not Han, it has nothing to do with now China.

Qing occupied Tibet and Xinjiang = Despite the rulers were not Han, they should be owned by China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
You see the same with most other nations. Japan and Germany are actually fairly stand-out in that they actually have apologized quite a bit for their actions during and prior to WW2... and despite (utterly asinine) beliefs to the contrary, Japan *has* apologized and done quite a bit of contrition for what happened 70/80 years ago.
It is sad for me to realize there is only one way to overcome the situation, which I don't hope to happen.
 
Old 08-16-2015, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,353,482 times
Reputation: 11309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanagisawa View Post
I can't agree more! The comments below are typical ones.

Yuan did something bad = Since the rulers were not Han, it has nothing to do with now China.

Qing occupied Tibet and Xinjiang = Despite the rulers were not Han, they should be owned by China.
If the ruler wasn't Han, but he ruled the Hans, had Han underlings, and wielded an army of Hans, then I think that makes it somewhat clear-cut...

It's like saying that the aggression in WW2 was Austrian and not German, because Hitler was Austrian... but, the advances in rocketry and aerospace that the Nazis made was German.

Americans and the English are happy to wax ecstatic about their victories in WW2, but not quite as excited to talk about their genocides against the Native Americans (both), their actions in Vietnam (US), their history of oppressive colonialism (UK), and there are a myriad of a apologist explanations that attempt to rewrite or reframe these events in a much more sympathetic light - which usually brings criticism from other nations.

An American tries to downplay the US' actions in Vietnam, so a Brit calls him out and shouts him down about US aggression.

The American reminds the Brit what they did to India and North America. The Brit gets defensive and reminds the American that the French did it to Africa, too.

A French guy says that what France did to Africa wasn't THAT bad because it gave them infrastructure and besides, Spain was doing awful things too.

Then, a Spanish guy says that what they did was understandable for what the world was going through at the time, and Spanish colonialism enriched the local cultures anyways, unlike what the Israelis did to Palestine...

... and so on, and so forth.

No one particularly likes to be held accountable for things that happened before their birth; they can't control what their grandparents or ancestors from 200, 300 years ago did. The further that we get from WW2, the less that Japan has to do with its aggression; another 20, 30 years, and nearly everyone who was alive at that time will be dead; already, 80% of Japan's population was born postwar. The children and then grandchildren of those alive during the war have indeed spent the interceding years apologizing for their ancestor's actions, but there's a certain point where you have to accept that their progeny have nothing to do with it.

The average Chinese person hasn't ever even met a Japanese person, let alone has ever been a victim of any trauma as a result of Japan's actions, all the same that a young Japanese person has never partaken in the victimization of a Chinese person. Why should a 20 year old Japanese girl have to apologize to a 20 year old Chinese girl? Why should a Chinese guy born in the 60's be angry at a Japanese guy born in the 90's? There is no excuse for it; it's quite stupid.
 
Old 08-16-2015, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,353,482 times
Reputation: 11309
Also, this story went viral last week here...

Shanghai dad has public meltdown after daughter accepts Japanese boyfriend's proposal: Shanghaiist

Quote:
Photos of a father in Shanghai who had an "emotional breakdown" at a local jewelry store after his daughter accepted the marriage proposal of her Japanese boyfriend have been making the rounds on Chinese media.

...

The father collapsed on the floor, complaining to the shop assistants: “Why would you sell rings to the Japanese?”
What a dorkus malorkus! That's overdramatic on the level of a 12-year old girl...
 
Old 08-17-2015, 02:16 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,773 posts, read 5,119,529 times
Reputation: 4565
^Lol that dad is such a retard.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 02:30 AM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
6,518 posts, read 7,459,650 times
Reputation: 10922
Japan and Germany both have apologized over and over. The Japanese paid a dear price for WW2, they did some terrible things and lost millions of people, their cities bombed and then nuked. The Japanese also learned from what happened and became a very peaceful and productive nation. They contribute to international peace efforts and assist nations who face disaster. World war two is over and it has been for 70 years. I think its time to let it go, no one should expect them to apologize forever. Japan has a right to its dignity and it is wrong to think every year we will see their contrition. How long would anyone expect them to keep apologizing?? Should we Americans apologize for all our national sins over and over again?? Slavery?? Indian wars??? Jim Crow?? History is what it is and we should accept it. All the people responsible for our national sins of the past are dead. Considering this we should feel no responsibility to apologize for it over and over again, but we are responsible for being informed about that. I think that is what should be expected of Japan, as long as they know their history and don't look like they are returning to their colonialist ways then we need to let them be. I would even support releasing them from their treaty obligations at this time, and the same for Germany. Those nations show no trend toward violence or aggression toward any of their neighbors. On the contrary their neighbors show it toward them, still harboring hate from the war. Both those nations have every reason to build up a powerful military to protect themselves from China in Japans case, while the Germans should be watching the monster in the east, Putins Russia.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 03:23 AM
 
Location: Manhattan, NYC
900 posts, read 631,090 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemissrock View Post
The Japanese and to a certain extent Nazi Germany are heavily demonized in modern times simply because they lost the war. Win a war they call you a conquerer, lose a war they call you a murderer. The Chinese government essentially use the Japanese as a propaganda tool. The people need a common enemy to unite against, through the eyes of the Chinese, the Japanese can do no right. If Abe get on his knees and begged for forgiveness the Chinese will find fault in it.
I am pretty certain that with or without any kind of victory, a sane mind cannot say that the atrocities those 2 countries did during the war can ever be called "conquering"... the term genocide does have a meaning. Anyway, Japan's problem is slightly different in the sense that they keep trying to revise their own History books, and to "protect" their children by simply not clearly stating what happened. Germany still emphases on the mistake committed during the war and you can see that no one would joke or dare defend concentration camps. As far as I remember, Japan does not officially acknowledge any of the alleged atrocities in their History books, or at least, that's how China and South Korea perceive it.

I understand that their children have nothing to do with it, but the very simple reason human beings teach History to future generation is for the purpose of avoiding former mistakes.

I can also understand that Japan would like to say that China and South Korea pretend to not have received any form of apologies for political gains. However, when you commit such a huge "mistake", you cannot excuse yourself, and you're not the one determining whether your apologies were enough, or not. The victims are the ones pardoning you, and you can only hope you receive it. As long as China and South Korea would not officially pardon Japan, the perception will always carry on. And as long as Japan does not realize that it's how they are perceived that matters, they will not be able to improve their own image, or even move forward on this political front.

What makes Japanese so certain that their own children will not repeat the same absurd errors, if no one ever teaches them? That's what's more disturbing for me.
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