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Old 08-17-2015, 09:25 AM
 
4,674 posts, read 3,607,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xeric View Post
Sounds exactly like what the right-wing nationalists in the US advocate for the Middle East.
Yes, except that the US military budget is 5 times China's defense budget. So far, China is just trying to develop the means to defend itself and its core interests around its peripheral seas. The US, by contrast, is maintaining its ability to beat anyone up in the world, anywhere in the world. There's a huge difference in the two approach. But China is quickly acquiring the means to do what the US has been doing for decades, and the Americans are now complaining because they don't want someone else to be as strong as them.

 
Old 08-17-2015, 09:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmonburgher View Post
Exactly. The CCP did NOTHING wrong. And there is no "counter" to that story.

See what I mean?
But something did happen...and the CCP does admit that it had to take resolute actions to squash it, or China would descend into chaos. This directly contradicts your claim that the CCP claims that "nothing happened."
 
Old 08-17-2015, 09:34 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,250,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmonburgher View Post
Exactly. The CCP did NOTHING wrong. And there is no "counter" to that story.

See what I mean?
what is wrong depends on how you look at it. It sounds horrible to have tanks marching into Beijing and soldiers killing the protestants (and vice versa), but that's a typical western mindset. The fact is, there was a riot against the government, the country is at risk of collapsing.

I think they did the right thing for the country and stabilized the country quickly, although many lives were lost, unfortunately. Imagine how many innocent lives were lost during many of CIA's overseas "operations"? Did Washington care? They consider it as collateral damage, and it is the same case with 1989.

If those lives were not lost, and the country collapsed into chaos (as it certainly would happen, don't be naive), it would have been much worse. China would probably be half as wealthy as it is today, and Shanghai would look like Bangkok.

Sometimes there is no win-win situation. You pick the least harmful solution.

The fact is, China was not ready for such dramatic reform the students wanted, nor is it today. China does what is best for most of its people. How the western country/"international community" think is irrelevant.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 09:43 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,250,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Yes, except that the US military budget is 5 times China's defense budget. So far, China is just trying to develop the means to defend itself and its core interests around its peripheral seas. The US, by contrast, is maintaining its ability to beat anyone up in the world, anywhere in the world. There's a huge difference in the two approach. But China is quickly acquiring the means to do what the US has been doing for decades, and the Americans are now complaining because they don't want someone else to be as strong as them.
it has been the core principle of US foreign policy for the past 20 years at least that America wouldn't tolerate a competitor to challenge its supremacy.

We should all keep in mind behind all the political preaching, the sole and ultimate rationale is nothing but eternal US dominance. All its diplomatic rhetoric serves that purpose.

The US doesn't care about democracy, or freedom, human rights or even living standards of the Chinese people, yes, it talks about those things every, but it really doesn't care. If China were was poor as Zimbabwe and as insignificant as Laos, the US wouldn't even mention China in the first place no matter how horribly the government treats its citizens.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
9,779 posts, read 13,347,718 times
Reputation: 11309
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
what is wrong depends on how you look at it. It sounds horrible to have tanks marching into Beijing and soldiers killing the protestants (and vice versa), but that's a typical western mindset. The fact is, there was a riot against the government, the country is at risk of collapsing.

I think they did the right thing for the country and stabilized the country quickly, although many lives were lost, unfortunately. Imagine how many innocent lives were lost during many of CIA's overseas "operations"? Did Washington care? They consider it as collateral damage, and it is the same case with 1989.

If those lives were not lost, and the country collapsed into chaos (as it certainly would happen, don't be naive), it would have been much worse. China would probably be half as wealthy as it is today, and Shanghai would look like Bangkok.

Sometimes there is no win-win situation. You pick the least harmful solution.

The fact is, China was not ready for such dramatic reform the students wanted, nor is it today. China does what is best for most of its people. How the western country/"international community" think is irrelevant.
But, do you think that the average Chinese citizen circa 1989 would have agreed with or joined the protesters, who were predominantly college students?
 
Old 08-17-2015, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Fort Collins, USA
1,470 posts, read 2,366,576 times
Reputation: 1806
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyone View Post
Yes, except that the US military budget is 5 times China's defense budget. So far, China is just trying to develop the means to defend itself and its core interests around its peripheral seas. The US, by contrast, is maintaining its ability to beat anyone up in the world, anywhere in the world. There's a huge difference in the two approach. But China is quickly acquiring the means to do what the US has been doing for decades, and the Americans are now complaining because they don't want someone else to be as strong as them.
Not the point. The jingoist "bomb our enemies into oblivion" is tailored to the stupidest people in the country. So it was enlightening to hear you say that in the context of China/Japan relations.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 09:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigeonhole View Post
I'm personally fed up with the "culture of apology". It's becoming ludicrous.
I agree.

Apology is in fact a western culture.

The Chinese don't apologize, at least seldom verbally. An American husband will apologize saying "I am sorry, I was wrong" after a fight and the wife will be happy; a Chinese husband will typically say nothing but will simply do more household work to show his remorse.

This is why China is never satisfied no matter how many times Japan apologized. China cares more about what you do than what nice and touchy-feely things you said. yes, even if Abe takes off his pants and kneels down with all limbs on the ground, the Chinese wouldn't be happy, because that means absolutely nothing to start with. It is cheap. It is just for show and China despise such shows.

JAPAN, please stop apologize. Stopping being a total US lackey to contain China would be a good start.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 10:00 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,250,780 times
Reputation: 7578
Quote:
Originally Posted by 415_s2k View Post
But, do you think that the average Chinese citizen circa 1989 would have agreed with or joined the protesters, who were predominantly college students?
believe it or not, the simple answer is no.

If they are fully aware of the consequence under the two scenarios, very few would be idealist enough to support the seemingly noble protests.

One should not be stupid enough to seek democracy for the sake of democracy, and it is a common mistake many brainwashed people make. Democracy doesn't have to the governing principle of every single country on this planet, so why force it on others?

China didn't exactly force filial piety, a core Chinese culture on Americans, did it? Although most China do think young Americans are heartless animals who rarely take care of their old parents. Why all of a sudden China just HAVE to adopt multiparty democracy?
 
Old 08-17-2015, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Fort Collins, USA
1,470 posts, read 2,366,576 times
Reputation: 1806
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
I agree.

Apology is in fact a western culture.

The Chinese don't apologize, at least seldom verbally. An American husband will apologize saying "I am sorry, I was wrong" after a fight and the wife will be happy; a Chinese husband will typically say nothing but will simply do more household work to show his remorse.

This is why China is never satisfied no matter how many times Japan apologized. China cares more about what you do than what nice and touchy-feely things you said. yes, even if Abe takes off his pants and kneels down with all limbs on the ground, the Chinese wouldn't be happy, because that means absolutely nothing to start with. It is cheap. It is just for show and China despise such shows.

JAPAN, please stop apologize. Stopping being a total US lackey to contain China would be a good start.
If China doesn't care about apologies, then why doesn't it just shut up about the issue? Perhaps the propaganda value of demonizing Japan is more important than anything Japan could say or do at this point.
 
Old 08-17-2015, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Taipei
6,771 posts, read 5,114,752 times
Reputation: 4555
Quote:
Originally Posted by xeric View Post
If China doesn't care about apologies, then why doesn't it just shut up about the issue?
Because China is a piece of bipolar ****?
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